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To: Vercingetorix
"There was selection for polymers with enzymatic properties facilitating polymerization and replication. "

Not so fast. Who did the selecting? In evolution you at least have living things doing the selecting, but before there was life you cannot say that. So the question is who did the selecting? What force did the selecting. No, the chemicals that make up life do not mix together to make anything complex without the help of living things. There has not a single protein been found in nature which was not produced by living things. Yes, chemicals mix such as oxygen oxidizing iron and there are lots of other similar chemical reactions. However, there is nothing even closely as complex fashioned as a living species by non-living matter.

"Wind, gravity, and thermal gradients all exist, don't they? Therefore the evolution of the first life form must be consistent with the existence of these properties of the physical world.'

You keep saying "must have" because your belief is that God could not have had a hand in the creation of life, but that is the question we are discussing so must have is not an answer. It is a tautology which says because I do not believe in God, then God cannot be the answer so natural laws must have created life. You are begging the question.

So tell us: what natural laws created life, how did they accomplish it? Give some examples of very complex things which have been created totally by the natural forces which you believe created life.

"Why postulate the existence of a maker of laws? The laws exist. Beyond that there is only speculation. '

I have postulated nothing. You came up with the answer of a maker of the laws, not I.

Regardless, if the universe is just random forces, acting in random ways, achieving random results - how could there be any natural laws at all? What constrains them from acting differently every time? What keeps them in check?

Let me just say this in conclusion - if the universe was not ordered it would not exist. It would have blown up, there would be no life, there would be nothing. It is because there is order in the universe that life and the universe itself is possible. Against this self-evident truth, the atheists in desperation have posited a universe of universes. This of course could not be, because if there were such a universe of universes with all but this one behaving chaotically, at least one of them would have destroyed this universe. So as you can see, there is no way you can get past the question of how did these natural laws arise? Who enforces them? Why are they enforced?

288 posted on 03/15/2002 5:42:15 PM PST by gore3000
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To: gore3000
"So the question is who did the selecting? What force did the selecting." -- gore3000

You have been at this long enough to know the answer to these questions by now. Do you have impaired long term memory? Selection is an algorithm that operates with inexorable and indefatigable certainty at all times and places. That doesn't mean it acts constantly in the same direction. The Dodo's ancestors, once capable of transoceanic flight, evolved was selected for flightlessness after it settled on its island home.

Here is a suggestion. Why not get your hands on a copy of Stephen Jay Gould's latest book, "The Structure of Evolutionary Theory?" At 1464 pages it should answer most of your questions and you can refer to it during your frequent memory lapses.

289 posted on 03/15/2002 7:24:07 PM PST by Vercingetorix
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