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To: Vercingetorix
You ignore the natural laws and selection.

No I do not. Let's take selection first: how could there be selection for life before there was any life? Clearly there could not be. The first life had to have arisen totally without the help of selection.

Now as to natural law. What do you mean by that? Are you postulating that the wind could have created such an orderly thing as a single cell? Or perhaps heat? Or perhaps gravity? There are no natural forces capable of creating anything as orderly as a cell, none at all.

And now one final question for all the evolutionists. You all speak a lot about natural law as providing the framework for order and materialistic progress. My question to you is: who made those laws?

286 posted on 03/14/2002 6:53:22 PM PST by gore3000
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To: gore3000
"No I do not. Let's take selection first: how could there be selection for life before there was any life? Clearly there could not be. The first life had to have arisen totally without the help of selection." -- gore3000

There was selection for polymers with enzymatic properties facilitating polymerization and replication. Simple repetitive structures in proteins and RNA coupled with lipid membranes and concentration of activity at the interface between imiscible fluids are all selectable prior to the first viable cellular form. The cell organelles for instance are all inclusions (originally just food) or symbionts that have evolved into permanent obligatory constituents (mitochondria, ribosomes, chloroplasts, etc.). Your statement that selection does not operate prior to the first cellular life form is simply false.

"Now as to natural law. What do you mean by that? Are you postulating that the wind could have created such an orderly thing as a single cell? Or perhaps heat? Or perhaps gravity? There are no natural forces capable of creating anything as orderly as a cell, none at all." -- gore3000

Wind, gravity, and thermal gradients all exist, don't they? Therefore the evolution of the first life form must be consistent with the existence of these properties of the physical world. The more important laws, which you should have mentioned if you had actually given this any thought, are the laws pertaining to chemical kinetics. Life is just a set of chemical reactions. It does not violate any known laws. Therefore it must have arisen in a fashion entirely consistent with those laws. Under the right conditions life is inevitable. There are even extremely simple bacteria on this planet that live deep underground in fissures in basaltic rock.

"My question to you is: who made those laws?" -- gore3000

Why postulate the existence of a maker of laws? The laws exist. Beyond that there is only speculation. Postulating an anthropomorphic god who designed the Universe and wrote all the natural laws falls into the realm of the supernatural (i.e., beyond the natural). It is an unsupportable hypothesis: It cannot be proven logically (Hegel demonstrated this). And it cannot be shown by evidence in the physical world. Therefore my answer to your question is simply that the laws themselves have a proven existence. Perhaps the Universe is the be all and end all in and of itself.

287 posted on 03/15/2002 7:28:53 AM PST by Vercingetorix
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