Posted on 03/07/2002 6:07:31 AM PST by iav2
Ergun Caner: Islam is not a Peaceful Religion
Ergun is the oldest son of a Muslim mwazien. The mwazien is similar to a preacher. In 1982 when he was 16 years old, he attended a revival service in Columbus, Ohio, at the invitation of a high school friend and accepted Christ. Ergun started attending church on Monday, accepted Christ on a Thursday -- and had his first piece of ham at a Youth Afterglow activity days later.
When Ergun attended the mosque the next day, his youth group of Shiite Muslims "beat the tar out of me," he says. Ergun's parents were separated at the time (prior to a divorce), and when his father found out about his salvation, he confronted Ergun. When Ergun refused to repudiate his faith in Christ, his father disowned him -- by facing Mecca and praying a prayer of abandonment because it was embarrassing that his oldest son would accept Christ. Sadly this effectively ended their relationship. Ergun didn't see his father for 17 years, until three days before his dad's death in 1999.
Ergun's Swedish mother met and married a Turkish man . They relocated to the U.S .where the younger brothers were born. Ergun says he was called to preach one year after salvation (he began college at 16), becoming a pastor at age 17 to a small country church in Manchester, Kentucky.
He says it was a mystery to him that God would call him because at the time, Ergun didn't speak English very well and didn't fully understand the Scriptures. He felt that he was all alone because neither his mother, nor his grandmother, were Christians. But he gladly accepted the call, and led his brothers to Christ the same week of his salvation.
Islam Is Not A Peaceful Religion
As the son of a mwazein, Ergun had to learn the hadith (the sayings and traditions of Muhammed, the Prophet of Islam) in the Qur'an. In these teachings, Ergun says the central thesis of Islam does in fact have an essential tenet of militaristic conquest at its heart. The infidel, or unbeliever, must be converted or conquered. If the Muslim dies in such a struggle or declaration of war (jihad), he is promised immediate translation into the highest level of paradise. Therefore, when pressed most Muslims would say that Mohamed Ata is in heaven according to the Qur'anic teaching.
The Qur'an, supposedly from the mouth of Allah, takes a dim view of the non-believer and a strict view of jihad as a warfare against them. In Surah 2:190, Allah says, "Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you. And slay them wherever you catch them." Physical warfare is an absolute necessity so that Allah is honored and worshipped. Jihad is one of the highest calls of life for a Muslim. "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and those who strive hard and fight in the cause of Allah with their wealth and lives." Surah 4.95
According to the doctrine of jihad there are three waves of jihad. The first wave is the shock -- which was Sept 11.
The second wave is to show a people that they are vulnerable. It has to be public. "Daniel Pearl was killed on videotape," says Ergun. There is no question that group who killed Pearl is a subgroup of the radical Muslim fundamental group, Mujahdeen.
The third wave is to humiliate your enemy, to "cut the legs out from under them." "Thank God President Bush responded as he did," Ergun says. "If he had not, the second wave would have been much, much worse than the first." The Koran teaches that if your enemy is weak -- conquer him. If he is strong -- respect him. That means they keep going until they meet with resistance.
When asked if he believes Osama bin Laden is still alive, Ergun says yes. "He is considered to be a martyr in their faith. If he were dead, they would be hailing him." Peace With Allah, Not Us
"I must take this opportunity to side with Pat," says Ergun. "He cannot take these hits (from the media and press) alone." Ergun says the word "Islam" means "peace with Allah" not "peace with us." "We are the infidels and therefore the enemy," says Ergun.
He further explains that when a Christian blows up an abortion clinic, he does that in spite of the teachings of Jesus Christ. "Muslims perform jihad because of the teachings of Muhammed," declares Ergun. "Make no mistake, they are at war with us and these are not just radical Muslims."
Osama bin Laden is a Sunni Muslim, not a Shiite, which is considered the more radical of the two. When bin Laden is on television, he is quoting the Qur'an. "It is difficult to take the Qur'an out of context," says Ergun. Even to the casual reader, jihad is more than just an intellectual exercise of struggle, but rather an engagement in battle and struggle and warfare with death as a conclusion for the Muslim blessing.
Muhammad echoed this conclusion in Hadith 4.73 "Muhammed said, "Know that paradise is under the shades of the sword." For the Muslim apologists who redact the terminology to indicate that fighting is perhaps an intellectual debate must read Surah 2:216, "Fighting is prescribed for you, and you dislike it. But it is possible that you dislike a thing which is good for you, and that you love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knows and you know not." It is impossible to determine that the text means anything but fighting in the traditional sense of combat.
A Muslim is a Muslim by birth, but many are illiterate. Therefore they must take the word of the imam, equivalent to a pastor, as truth. They cannot question the validity of what the imam says. With reference to the recent Gallup poll, "they hate us," says Ergun. "And they cannot make the distinction between an American and a Christian because of the way they are brought up culturally. When you say a man is a Turk, it is understood that he is Muslim."
Ergun believes that the United States did not finish the job in the Gulf War. He believes that we will not end the war on terrorism without including Saddam Hussein, who is the major fundraiser for Islam. "If we do not go after him, this will never end," he says. "He will continue the jihad."
Incredible Opportunity
But in the midst of this turmoil, Ergun says this is the most incredible opportunity to witness to Muslims. They are beginning to understand their religion. Many do not want to be part of the violence and are coming to Christ. The difference between reaching them and not reaching them depends on the teaching of grace.
"The single most important thing to do is teach on grace," he says. To Muslims, the intimacy of God is so new. Teach them that they don't have to live in fear of the "scales of Allah," which are seen as actual scales (2 Surah 4). For the Muslims who fear the scales that measure their eternal damnation if weighted heavier for evil than good, this is the only true eternal security they have.
Christians should also know that Allah and God are not the same. "No serious or intellectual Muslim would say that Allah has a Son, that He is a Triune, nor that He is personal," Ergun says. Allah is Creator and Judge. Christ's attributes are so totally different. He is loving, kind, gracious, and forgiving. As a Christian, Ergun is offended when he hears people say that God and Allah are the same. Many think getting to God is like getting to Chicago. You can get there by plane, train or auto. It doesn't matter what path you take, as long as you get there. Ergun calls this the "Oprahization" of American culture.
On October 19, 2001, Ergun spoke before the UN at the Subcommittee on Cultural Affairs. As an expert on Islam and one who speaks Arabic, he is being invited to participate in even more high-level projects on this area. There are only 20 former Muslims who are now preachers in America; there are only eight (and Ergun is one of them) who are professors of theology.
Oh, I'm sure they have some.
What churches do they attend?
I'm guessing it's not the United Methodist Church (the self-proclaimed, "Hate-Free Zone"!). ;-)
What words of Jesus do they point to in order to justify their actions?
Not to pick nits, but in my humble opinion, ALL the words in the Holy Bible are the words of Jesus (not just the red ones! :-).
And Reagan called the Mujahedin the "moral equivalent of our founding fathers."
Bush says we're not in a war against Islam and people like you continue to claim we are. Don't you believe the President?
Helmsman: But to pretend that Christians were not responsible for many of the greatest atrocities in history is not dealing with reality.
The Man: Second, while it is true that atrocities were committed in the name of Christ, it is simply historically imbalanced to speak of them as being among the greatest atrocities in history, because they simply were not.
The Man's statement IS accurate - To say something is among "The greatest atrocities in history," one must point out that the pain and death inflicted by such event is large enough to rank amongst them.
The greatest atrocities in history have still been brought about by state-ordained atheism. China. Vietnam. Korea. Soviet Russia. Germany.
26 million people dead (and counting) as a direct result of mandated atheism. Stop blaming religion for Mankind's evils. Islam may certainly be violent by nature, but it takes mankind to act out on the evils it teaches.
:) ttt
More correctly, 26 million dead as a direct result of fundamental disregard for the rights of individuals.
(a trait shared by communist totalitarians, and religious fanatics alike)
He and his supporters picket the funerals of homosexuals (particularly those who are murdered because they are homosexual, like Matthew Sheppard_) and carry signs reading "God Hates Fags," "AIDS Cures Fags," and "Fags Die - God Laughs."
Helluva guy.
The Roman Catholic Church sure as hell didn't kill 26 million people. Neither has the Southern Baptists Convention.
I know what you're getting at, but I'm gonna pick nits with you - The posters above were talking about including Christianity amongst some of the most gruesome acts in history. The Man was simply pointing out that it's not totally accurate (nor historically honest) to assert that, since there are absolutely worse examples in history of human conflict than the ones aforementioned.
The Mongol invasion of Russia.
The conquests by Alexander the Great
The Islamic invasion of western Europe and northern Africa (which sparked both the Spanish Inquisition and the Crusades)
The Communist atrocities of the 20th century (not even counting the horrors that were WWI and WWII...)
There is no common thread between any of these events, other than the fact that Mankind, being inherently evil, was involved in all of them. Get my point? (I'm trying to say "Being historically dishonest does not justify, nor require, the bashing of any religion"...) The concept that all wars are a result of entities "trampling on" the "inherent liberties" of others is intellectually dishonest, and ignores the core trends of human behavior throughout history.
:) ttt ;) ttt
The Conquistadors and the Crusaders certainly killed hundreds of thousands if not millions combined... (but they were a little lacking in the technology of war)
Why do you continue to attempt to excuse the attrocities comitted by these evil men claiming to represent Jesus? (even while acting in diametric opposition to his teachings)
Why not just admit that their actions were evil, instead of trying to excuse those actions with some lame "but they didn't kill as many" excuse mongering?
It would do wonders for your credibility.
Your point is well taken, however you have left one varaiable out of your reasoning. And that is, for a LONG time "the church" WAS both church and state...and during that time people did not have access to the Bible.(they weren't called the Dark Ages for nothing! and the medival church leaders knew that control over literacy and the distribution of the Bible equated to control over the "peasants") I argue that there were very few true Christians during the Dark Ages, and if there were, they were tortured/imprisoned/killed due to their opposition to the "Holy" Roman Empire.(the said medival society)
There are alot of people who claim to know about Muslims including The President who has had his State Department amass a list of Muslims the world over who have publically denounced the attacks and terrorism in general. If you visit the State department web site you will see this list. It is quite impressive and you will not find the Muslim haters visiting for fear of shattering closely held illusions.
Point out the statement where I condoned these events. I'm waiting.
(Why do you continue to evade the questions presented to you? Are you completely unable to rationally and honestly look at historical events, without allowing your anti-religious biases to show? Surely, war is terrible, as is the killing of innocents. Nowhere have I said otherwise. I will continue to assert, even though you have yet to honestly address the issue, that anyone who says "Christianity is responsible for the most heinous atrocities in history" is historically ignorant at best, intellectually dishonest at worst.)
;) ttt
Most excellent points, indeed! I think you may have hit the nail on the head with your post.
:) ttt
The horrors committed by so-called “Christians” consitute supreme blasphemy. They are not to be excused. They also are in direct opposition to Jesus Christ and His teachings, and they always were. Those who committed such atrocities, one might say, “served Satan”--certainly not God.
There are so-called “Christians”, in the world today, who do the same thing. In fact, these are false-Christians (I like “faux--Christians”, myself)
Whether or not contemporary Islam is analgous to this I don't know. Some say it is. Some say it isn't. Maybe Bin Laden et al. are “faux--Muslims”; I certainly hope so.
I myself tend to be Oprahized. I think that people can probably get to God by train, plane, automobile, flying carpet or what you will. However--for myself--Jesus Christ is the only One to Whom I am willing to entrust a matter of such importance, and , therefore, I am willing to accopt no other mediator, advocate, or guide.
I have asked Him to bring me to God, and I believe that He is doing that. I also believe that He will bring anyone.
There may be another way--but I'm not taking a chance on it. And furthermore, Jesus Christ is All that I want.
Some form of Islam may be a way for all I know.
However, you can be sure that Muslims who behave as Bin Laden and Al Qaida and these jihadists and the faux--Christians who commit similar acts are not worshipping God--and on some level they no doubt know it.
I did not say you condoned them.
I said you excused them (and continue to excuse them) by suggesting that these evil acts were somehow less evil, because the numbers weren't as big.
You can pretend that's not what you're trying to do, but it's a pretty weak pretense.
Not all people claiming to be Christian are good. Some are evil.
Not all people claiming to be Muslim are evil. Some are good.
Try thinking instead of hyper-emotionalizing.
Read my above post again. I'm tired of arguing with you (you seem to have no desire to listen, nor respond to anything in this argument of substance), so I'll let my previous statements stand. Let me know if you ever decide to honestly look at history.
:/ ttt
The North and South American Aboriginals wish to have a word with you about your peaceful missionaries.
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