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To: Ward Smythe
Do Calvinists believe being "born again" is entirely separate (preceeding) the salvation experience?

Calvinists cannot believe in a "salvation experience" since (if you believe the construct) you were 'elected' to salvation or not before the foundation of the world. No "experience" and certainly no "decision" you would make would be 'reliable.' In their view you were born again when God declared it by fiat before the foundation of the world. It was 'irresistible', 'effectual' and all that good triple tulip stuff back then as well. Since you know the secret handshake (this bizarre doctrine), you must be one of the elect. Good for you. Too bad for those other guys with their noses pressed to the window.

The good ol' time (honest) Calvinists said everybody else (including the non-elect babies, the retarded, etc) was individually "predestined" (kind of 'non-elected' in a very final way) for everlasting Hellfire at the same time. [Don't you worry your pretty little head about them though, they're just "chaff" anyway. So Christ didn't die for them.] Now 'modern Calvinists' (there's an oxymoron for you) that wish to hide the sheer brutality of their 'doctrines' say, well no, God didn't do it, they just didn't get 'elected' so they fall of their own weight into you-know-where. [Remember their big pitch for this ghoulish god is that now you know he's 'really sovereign'. Seems kind of strange he couldn't be bothered to give the bad guys -- er, sorry non-elect -- their own brutal send-off at the same time.] But, in any event, no "will" and therefore surely no "salvation experience" for anyone. "This is a much tape-delayed broadcast of a game played millions of years ago."

Anything you 'feel' is just your assurance that you are one of the elect, but the transaction cleared the bank before the world began. And this is solely a 'legal' transaction, so don't put any stock in your feelings. Comforting isn't it? Any resemblance between that and the Gospel of Jesus Christ is purely coincidental.

996 posted on 03/01/2002 1:07:55 PM PST by winstonchurchill
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To: winstonchurchill
"Since you know the secret handshake (this bizarre doctrine), you must be one of the elect"

Know what, you are probably the most contrary individuals I have ever met, in person or online.

You keep using language that is sure to cause offense ("secret handshake", "bizarre doctrine", "ghoulish god", etc.), as well as telling us that we certainly can't be old time Calvinists because we don't conform to your stupid notion of what a Calvinist should be. This is the reason that I choose to ignore you most of the time.

Now, let's set the record straight. This old-time, five-point Calvinist did have a salvation experience, it was July 24, 1972 at approximately 10:00 PM MDT, in my bedroom in El Paso, Texas. I can still remember the day and hour as if it was yesterday. The Holy Spirit of God made Christ real to me, and the horror of my sins was a huge weight that only Christ could remove. Thank God, I haven't gotten over that experience to this day. I saw the Spirit of God do the same work in my Father's life in February of 1973 as I shared the Gospel with him about 20 feet removed from the spot where I had my salvation experience. I have seen the Spirit open the eyes of countless others during the past 30 years. We know full-well the joy of being "born again" and experiencing the beauty of Christ.

Secondly, just because one has a Calvinist doctrine does not mean that they are actually one of the elect. I know of several individuals who are rock-solid in their doctrine, but I don't see any spiritual fruit in their lives. I would have a hard time believing that they are actually regenerate saints. Of course, that isn't up to me to judge, but I certainly don't see the Spirit of Christ at work in their lives. At the same time, I know of a great number of saints who exhibit the fruit of the Spirit in their lives, and they do not hold to the "Calvinist construct". I know some who couldn't articulate a theological stance if their life depended on it, they simply know Jesus. There are others who are quite articulate in defending their theology, even if it differs from mine, including one Jesuit priest that I have known for more than 20 years. While he and I are often at theological odds, I have never had reason to doubt his salvation.

Please quit being an accuser of the brethren. It is certainly clear that you hate our theology, but your continual use of hateful and offensive language, coupled with your unrelenting sarcasm, are just a little bit much for my spirit to bear.

999 posted on 03/01/2002 1:28:56 PM PST by Jerry_M
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To: winstonchurchill
Thanks.
1,009 posted on 03/01/2002 2:33:49 PM PST by Ward Smythe
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