Grant God’s perfect Foreknowledge of All Potentialities, and Sovereign Freedom of Action [i.e. to either choose or not choose as you have done so], and you have just given the Calvinist the entirety of the debate. Nice try Woody (see my post #148), but not quite.
God knows that man sins; for he knows all things: Yet we do not sin because he knows it, but he knows it because we sin; and his knowledge supposes our sin, but does not in anywise cause it. John Wesley on Predestination.
Your concept of God's foreknowledge limits God in space and time. It binds God by man's definition of time.
I can see why you have trouble with the concept.
Your concept of God's foreknowledge limits God in space and time. It binds God by man's definition of time. Absolutely not! Your concept does. You have already given me the debate: God's choice either to create a man this way or that way determines his free will choice to either heaven or hell. You see, I can give you your view of a man that is too big and you still cannot overthrow Predestination.
My definition allows God's foreknowledge through the depth of time, but also to an infinite number of possible Potentialities which God has free Sovereign action to give Actuality to the One of His choice.
Ok, so let us start again, shall we. Remember that we are only trying to find a common Rock upon which to mutually proclaim that we are willing to let God be God with our doctrine. So, I will not be arguing for my personal view of Predestination and I will not be arguing for Wesley's, which I do not find God honoring.
I will also not require you to concede to me the Total Depravity of man. I'd rather talk about how big our God is and not how big or small man is. So, you are free to pick any point between the Total Depravity of man and the idiotic Pelagain heresy; any point.
So, with that in mind, let us proceed:
- God has foreknown all those who would ultimately be saved by Him, the elect.
- God has foreknown all those who would ultimately never repent.
- God has known both the elect and those who would never repent from before the foundation of the world.
- God has the freedom to create any man with any traits and desires that He is please to give him, knowing fully how those traits and desires would affect that man's free will response to the gospel, either to repent and be saved or to never repent.
- God has perfect foreknowledge of an infinite number of potentialities of traits and desires for every single man.
- God has Sovereign Freedom of Action to give actuality to any potentiality of His choosing.
You may now agree to any and all points, restate, or correct for your position.