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On Free Grace
Wesley Center of Applied Theology | 1740 | John Wesley

Posted on 02/25/2002 11:01:41 PM PST by fortheDeclaration

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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, and having a High Priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.

Hebrews 10:19-23

681 posted on 02/28/2002 5:04:21 PM PST by CCWoody
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To: xzins
The Five Basic Arminian Objections to Calvinism

These Arminian definitions are found in the Wycliffe Dictionary of Theology and are condensed in that work by a Calvinist, Roger Nicole(Gordon Divinity School). I will take some liberties with them for the sake of clarification:

1. - - God elects only on the basis of foreseen faith and condemns only on the basis of resistance to grace.

2. - - Christ provided a universal opportunity by dying for all men and for every man such that ALL those who turn to him as true repentant believers are saved.

3. - - Man is so depraved that foreplanned divine intervention and preceding divine grace are necessary to bring about faith or any good deed.

682 posted on 02/28/2002 5:10:43 PM PST by xzins
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
...is the Atonement intended for those who die in infancy, or is it not??

Those who die in infancy have not sinned. There is no need for sacrifice.

683 posted on 02/28/2002 5:16:58 PM PST by ShadowAce
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To: ShadowAce
There is no need for sacrifice

Excellent answer. The Calvinist response about infants is this: U - - Unconditional Election means that God has elected for His own glory, in accordance with His own will and without regard for the merit of those elected, some for salvation and some to be left in their sins.

Many calvinists insist that most of those who die in infancy go to hell; that only the elect infants go to heaven.

684 posted on 02/28/2002 5:28:16 PM PST by xzins
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To: ShadowAce
Here's an interesting observation about many pro-life calvinists who believe that life begins at conception. Aborted babies who've had their brains sucked out in a vacuum cleaner are mostly going to hell. Only the elect ones will go to heaven.

Only the neo-calvinists who believe in an unlimited atonement or a modified unlimited atonement can theologize aborted babies into heaven.

685 posted on 02/28/2002 5:33:55 PM PST by xzins
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To: xzins
Excellent answer.

Does this mean that Christ did not die for any person who dies as an infant?

BTW, this Calvinist and all of my "tag-team" believe that all who die as infants are elect infants. Would you be suggesting that any of us believe that babies go to hell?

686 posted on 02/28/2002 5:34:52 PM PST by CCWoody
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To: CCWoody
Read my #685.

I believe that you are NOT a classical calvinist, but that you are a neo-calvinist who does not truly believe in the limited atonement.

687 posted on 02/28/2002 5:37:42 PM PST by xzins
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How does a man believe in Jesus Christ!

Is there any non-Calvinist that can answer this simple question; any, just one? It is essential for salvation for without it, no one can be saved. And yet, it seems that it is beyond the Arminian gospel to explain.

688 posted on 02/28/2002 5:40:51 PM PST by CCWoody
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To: xzins
I believe that you are NOT a classical calvinist, but that you are a neo-calvinist who does not truly believe in the limited atonement.

I'll wait for the discussion of the "L"! Besides, I believe that Spurgeon shares the same views as I do.

689 posted on 02/28/2002 5:43:19 PM PST by CCWoody
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To: CCWoody
Wesleyans believe that pollution is inherited from Adam, but his guilt is not imputed to any of his descendants. Each of us earn sin-guilt by our own engagement in sin. (The WAGES of sin is death.) Infants have not sinned and, therefore, are not guilty before God. They go immediately to heaven upon death.
690 posted on 02/28/2002 5:47:10 PM PST by xzins
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To: xzins
Infants have not sinned and, therefore, are not guilty before God. They go immediately to heaven upon death.

Does this mean that infants to die can approach God entirely on their own merit? Does this mean that they have no need for a High Priest?

691 posted on 02/28/2002 5:53:36 PM PST by CCWoody
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To: CCWoody
But as many as received him to them gave he power to become children of God.

If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you shall be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness and with the mouth that confession is made unto salvation.

Bottom line appears to be choice, doesn't it?

If that's not what you mean by "how" you're going to have to share the "particularistic" definition of what your local group of calvinists mean by the word "how."

692 posted on 02/28/2002 5:53:59 PM PST by xzins
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To: fortheDeclaration
I've asked this before on the "Neverending Chronicles" thread, and I'll ask it again: Why is it that we must debate about which "version" of Christianity is right?

Personally, I think that the Devil likes these kinds of debate about nothing.

693 posted on 02/28/2002 5:57:55 PM PST by FourtySeven
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To: xzins
If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you shall be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness and with the mouth that confession is made unto salvation.

I accept that as 100% Biblical. ;-)

So, what happens in a man's heart that causes belief?

694 posted on 02/28/2002 5:58:45 PM PST by CCWoody
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To: CCWoody
Jesus says that NO ONE comes to the Father except through him....these infants will arrive in heaven with THE DOOR being their way as well.
695 posted on 02/28/2002 6:00:04 PM PST by xzins
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To: xzins, CCWoody, Jerry_M, RnMomof7
Read my #685. I believe that you are NOT a classical calvinist, but that you are a neo-calvinist who does not truly believe in the limited atonement. 687 posted on 2/28/02 6:37 PM Pacific by xzins

Your #685 is a blatant lie, proving once again that you have absolutely no interest in truthfully understanding Calvinism.

God, who alone sovereignly decides whom He is going to regenerate, has Elected before the foundation of the World to irresistibly apply the Atonement to ALL infants whom He foreknew He would see fit to call from this life in infancy.

Ergo, in choosing the persons of the Elect, He chose to include all persons whom He foreknew He would call away from life in infancy. All of them.

Thi is not a "neo-calvinist" or "modified calvinist" view. You are just making these terms up to serve your lies. This has been the classic view of Calvinists for centuries. The mainstream of Calvinism so teaches, and has always so taught.

But do you care about that, when you could instead preach lies, and bear false witness, as you do in your #685?

No, you do not care. Your preference, and the desire of your heart, is instead to bear false witness, and preach lies.
And we Calvinists understand that!! It is, after all, just who you are, that's all.

696 posted on 02/28/2002 6:05:29 PM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian
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To: ShadowAce, xzins, Jerry_M, CCWoody, RnMomof7, the_doc
Those who die in infancy have not sinned. There is no need for sacrifice. 683 posted on 2/28/02 6:16 PM Pacific by ShadowAce

Ergo, you do not believe that Christ died for "all the world", but rather, Christ died for "all the world except those who die in infancy, for they need no atonement".

Right?

697 posted on 02/28/2002 6:07:41 PM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian
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To: xzins
Jesus says that NO ONE comes to the Father except through him....these infants will arrive in heaven with THE DOOR being their way as well.

Well, I believe that infants must come to the Father through Christ; I believe that they, just like me, have need of a High Priest. But you, believing that they are not sinners in need of Salvation, really need to explain why these verses mean an infant has need of their heart being sprinkled clean by our High Priest.

698 posted on 02/28/2002 6:08:02 PM PST by CCWoody
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To: Codie
Does an Orthodox service count?
699 posted on 02/28/2002 6:18:39 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
But do you care about that, when you could instead preach lies, and bear false witness, as you do in your #685?

I said that I believe he is not a classical calvinist, but is instead a neo-calvinist.

I really do believe that. How is it a lie?

You know, the way you phrase things makes you seem a melodramatic oddity? Are you a bit histrionic in your business life as well?

700 posted on 02/28/2002 6:21:25 PM PST by xzins
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