Posted on 02/24/2002 8:50:08 PM PST by mdittmar
A Fort Bragg soldier taking part in an exercise off the base was killed and another was injured in a shooting after a sheriff’s deputy stopped them on a rural road, authorities said.
The soldiers were taking part in a role-playing exercise that is part of the Special Forces Qualification Course, according to a statement from the Moore County Sheriff’s Department.
The soldiers were carrying weapons, but they do not carry live ammunition during the exercise, Maj. Richard Patterson of the John F. Kennedy Special Warfare Center and School told The Fayetteville Observer.
“The two soldiers were not in uniform. For various scenarios within the exercise, that’s not uncommon,” said a Special Forces spokesman. “They were going out to do reconnaissance of a target that was going to be used for a future mission in the exercise,” the spokesman said.
The newspaper reported that the soldiers were in a vehicle that was stopped by Deputy Randall Butler on a rural road northwest of Robbins on Saturday afternoon. Robbins is about 25 miles from the Fort Bragg reservation.
The sheriff’s department would not comment on why Butler stopped the vehicle or why he drew his weapon. No charges had been filed Sunday. Butler was placed on administrative leave with pay.
Sheriff Frank Johnson was out of town and couldn’t be reached by telephone Sunday.
UNDER INVESTIGATION
The soldiers were in a vehicle driven by a civilian who was playing the role of a resident of a fictitious country, Patterson said. He wouldn’t discuss further details of the incident because it was being investigated by the State Bureau of Investigation and the Army.
“It was definitely a misunderstanding, but we’re still looking at the procedures and actions taken. We can’t lay blame on anyone right now,” said the Special Forces spokesman. The exercise, known as “Robin Sage,” is the 19-day final exam of the Special Forces Qualification Course. It tests skills in survival, tactics and dealing with people, as well as judgment, decision-making and ethics.
In previous Robin Sage sessions, law enforcement officials have helped the military by setting up road blocks. There was no immediate indication whether Butler was helping with Saturday’s exercise.
Patterson said the names of the dead and wounded soldiers wouldn’t be released until their relatives were notified.
The wounded soldier was listed in serious condition at FirstHealth Moore Regional Hospital in Pinehurst, according to the sheriff’s department.
So, is it that responses arent allowed that are to the facts, or more chilling is it bias on the part of the person who deleted the posts?
I was under the impression that this was a conservative website, I didnt realize it was a place where radical unfounded viewpoints get to go unchallenged.
The trainees thought the cop was part of the scenario. They were wrong. The cop thought the trainees were some hardcases. He was wrong.
Was the training worth the dead and wounded? That is a question that the spec ops folks will need to answer. Note that the cop is going to feel like shit for the rest of his life.
Well, the officer should have been well briefed regarding any exercises like this on his beat, if not, why not?
Second, the exercise should have allowed the troops to wear their uniforms, and pretend they were in civvies. (Safety) They're just play acting everything else, right? Why not wear the uniform?
After all, the gov't has warned law enforcement about terrorists and encouraged aggressive enforcement by officers in the field.
Third, those troops should not give the officer any crap. If he said to put their hands up, they should comply. His gun was loaded and ready.
It all looks like a break down of common sense at high levels, in the local police and the military at that base. And possibly, bravado from the two unarmed soldiers, which can fairly be called foolishness if they did resist the officer's commands. Those weren't pop guns they were carrying, and he was scared, too.
It's not often I side with the officer in these shootings, but on this one (so far), I do.
More facts, we need more facts.
Because he is lying about not knowing about the exercise,and because so far his is the ONLY version we have heard. I also happen to think he is lying about the attack on him. ESPECIALLY about one student he had pepper sprayed still attacking and trying to disarm him all alone,while the other fumbled in a bag to try to take out,assemble,and load with blanks a M-4.
BTW,his boss changed his story today to admit that Moore County HAD been told about the exercises. Imagine that.
BTW-11,I also have no doubt the sheriff's dept AND the brass in the Pentagram will work together to diminish any responsibility on the deputy's part and try to kill this story as soon as possible. The reason I say this is because the army NEEDS the full cooperation and assistance of local LEO's to make Robin Sage work. I predict the deputy will receive a job in another dept and a little cash,and the soldiers family will be offered a out of court "keep quiet" quick settlement from both the army and Moore County. It would benefit nobody to keep this going,and everybody would benefit from it just going away.
This deputy had taken part in role-playing himself on previous Robin Sage exercises. Chances are he also knew the local chicken farmer who was driving the truck,since he had been living there his whole life. Knowing the man was a local farmer,he shouldn't have been too worried about him being a terrorist.
Second, the exercise should have allowed the troops to wear their uniforms, and pretend they were in civvies. (Safety) They're just play acting everything else, right? Why not wear the uniform?
The locals are encouraged to call the local cops or the army to report any guerillas they see running around in uniform. Sometimes the cops are even encouraged to arrest and hold in jail any students they catch. The point of this exercise is realism,and any SF soldier spotted in the real world on a mission would likely either be arrested or killed. They need to learn to be unobtrusive.
BTW,if a student is found guilty of gross stupidity such as being caught running around in public in his fatigues,he flunks out of the program. I know of two Captains who were recycled because they went out to recon a bridge by themselves,and even though they were in civilian clothes,these idiots were still wearing their GI boots,and both still had greasepaint behind their ears which their GI haircuts did not hide. They also chose to do this without telling their team sgt where they were going,and when they missed their link-up with their ride back to the base camp,the team sgt made the (correct)decision that they may have been captured and the base camp position was compromised.
Almost every class has some students who have been working over a year to become SF soldiers and passed to this point,who are flunked and sent back to their units because Robin Sage showed they didn't learn their lessons and know how to apply them. Robin Sage isn't a "set-stage" piece where the outcome is known in advance. The students set up their own missions,and if make bad plans,they get "killed". There ARE a couple of required missions I won't discuss here,and failing to accomplish either of these is also cause to flunk them out of the course. Several students from each team will perform so poorly that they are recycled,and have to do this all over again. I even know of a couple who were not only flunked-out,but were barred from ever again applying for SF.
Couldn't SF restage Robin Sage in another set of counties around Bragg or in those around some other post? If the Army really thinks their candidates did right and Moore messed it up, they might give some other hospitable counties a chance to play roles for the excercise. A new locale might be the the thing to keep the experience fresh and everyone involved on their toes.
Not really. For a variety of reasons. One being they need to be close to Bragg for support purposes. Another is that it would literlly take years to replace the existing infastructure. Some of the local women around there could teach courses in guerilla warfare because of all the years they and their families have been working with the army. Despite what the sheriff says,the army has built up a core of good will in that area that can't be replaced. I made friends with some people out there 30 years ago that I STILL visit with. I'm now friends with their grandchildren. The woman Cheryl who is mentioned in one of the newspaper stories (Wall Street Journal)? I've known her husband since he was 12 years old,and sometimes stay at their house when I'm out there. Her father in law even tried to GIVE me 3 acres of land if I wanted to move out there.The majority of the people in that area are VERY patriotic,and that sheriff had better be VERY careful,or the voters will throw his butt out on the street in the next election.
As to the question of the cop knowing about the exersize...what difference would it make if he did? He still did not know that THESE guys were trainees. Should he have let some hard cases disarm him? The first mistake was the soldiers. Tragic, but not the cop's fault.
Jeze, I cannot believe I am defending a cop. Shows how strange this event is.
No. That would be un-Constitutional. A violaion of Posse Comitatus. It is a unfortunate truth that federal some SF teams are now being required to teach CQB drills and combat medicine to various feral gooberment LEO's,but I don't know a single one that is happy about it. The same thing is happening with conventional units being ordered to provide equipment and drivers. This is under that damn-fool so-called "War on Drugs" and "Joint Task Force 6". Get rid of the un-Constitutional War on Drugs,and this crap stops right then.
I still don't like the smell of this type of training. I think there are major forces planning some sort of power-grab where the citizen loses, bigtime. Disarming police?
What for? Are the two forces in conflict? (The military and the police?) If the real action were to take place on foreign soil, this training in America would be of less value. They should have military members play the role of 'civilians' on a base somewhere.
Yes,I'm ex-SF myself,and have helped with this training. This training saves lives.
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