Posted on 02/18/2002 4:59:53 AM PST by cracker
I see no necessity:
The objectivist assumes that he (and to this point, only he) possess free will. He cannot provide a shred of verifiable evidence that he does. But neither can anyone provide a shred of verifiable evidence that he does not. So, he states the axiom: I have free will. Not out of objective necessity does he state this, but only out of a subjective preference over determinism.
Given this axiom, a question arises: Do other persons possess free will? Looking for verifiable evidence in affirmative support, the objectivist finds none (post 378). In fact, the objectivist can find no verifiable evidence to support the assertion that any living being or any other matter/energy combination possess free will. He does observe that other persons exhibit complex responses to stimuli. And he knows that he is not able to predict the responses with any regularity. He realizes, however, that people are the most complex combinations of matter/energy he has observed, and that his inability to predict the responses of other people with any regularity reflects his lack of understanding of the complex combinations and workings of the matter/energy that people are composed of. The objectivist has no verifiable evidence or logical necessity in affirmative support of his assumption that the complex responses of other persons to stimuli result from free will in humans, just as he has no verifiable evidence or logical necessity in affirmative support of the assumption that weather (the complex response of the atmosphere to stimuli) results from free will in the atmosphere. Assuming that other persons have free will is not necessary for the objectivist to interact with, respond to, and study other people, just as assuming that the atmosphere has free will is not necessary for him to interact with, respond to, and study the atmosphere.
The objectivist is able to conduct himself as a rational being---observing, hypothesizing, and rejecting invalid conclusions---without extending the axiom that he has free will to anyone or anything outside of himself; there is no logical necessity to do so. Additionally, since neither he, nor anyone else, can provide objectively verifiable evidence that others either do or do not have free will, there is therefore both no objective evidence and no logical necessity that requires him to prefer the theory that the complex response of other persons to stimuli is the result of free will over the theory that the complex response of other persons to stimuli is the result of determinism. One can only conclude that the assumption made by the objectivist that other persons have free will is the result of personal preference, not necessity.
I guess you had no choice but to feel that way.
The objectivist assumes that he (and to this point, only he) possess free will. He cannot provide a shred of verifiable evidence that he does.
That's why it's an axiom.
But neither can anyone provide a shred of verifiable evidence that he does not. So, he states the axiom: I have free will. Not out of objective necessity does he state this, but only out of a subjective preference over determinism.
No. If in fact we are all products of determinism, it doesn't matter what we think. But we all are convinced that we think, so the axiom covers the situation. If we're wrong, it doesn't matter anyway.
Given this axiom, a question arises: Do other persons possess free will? Looking for verifiable evidence in affirmative support, the objectivist finds none (post 378 ). In fact, the objectivist can find no verifiable evidence to support the assertion that any living being or any other matter/energy combination possess free will. He does observe that other persons exhibit complex responses to stimuli. And he knows that he is not able to predict the responses with any regularity. He realizes, however, that people are the most complex combinations of matter/energy he has observed, and that his inability to predict the responses of other people with any regularity reflects his lack of understanding of the complex combinations and workings of the matter/energy that people are composed of.
Well, that's evidence. If you don't think it's iron-clad, that's not a problem. It's the only evidence we have. And the "I have free will" axiom is one which they too can invoke; hence we all have free will. Again, if we're wrong, it doesn't really matter; but if we're right, we can proceed with discussions such as this.
Assuming that other persons have free will is not necessary for the objectivist to interact with, respond to, and study other people, just as assuming that the atmosphere has free will is not necessary for him to interact with, respond to, and study the atmosphere.
No. If I thought that you were truly incapable of reason (like the atmosphere) I wouldn't attempt to reason with you, as I don't with the atmosphere.
One can only conclude that the assumption made by the objectivist that other persons have free will is the result of personal preference, not necessity.
Not my conclusion at all.
How do we know such a thing? We have never been there. I do know that the famous "find" 3-4 years ago of what was supposed to be evidence of proteins on a martian meteorite was found to be false.
The last point means that for every cubic meter of sea water you get a little more than three cubic meters of atmospheric oxygen."
Okay, let's go by your numbers. 3 to 1 ratio. Let's forget that since the atmosphere is higher it covers more area. The atmosphere is some 20 miles deep. Now the lowest ocean dephts are less than 30,000 feet deep. That is just 6 miles at the deepest point. The average depth of the oceans is much less, say 10,000 feet. That is a mere 2 miles. 2 x 3= 6. So yes, if this were going on constantly the oceans would be empty eventually and more importantly, we would have evidence of big, very big falls in ocean levels in geologic times. This is not the case. Vade's statement is total bunk as I said.
No, we are not talking about television, we are talking about evolution. This is a side trip into science because evolutionists keep denying that science gives any proof.
So you say this guy invented the cathode ray tube used for tv in 1855. Great. What did he do with it? Did he get "I Love Lucy" in it? Whatever he did with it, I am sure he died as another pennyless inventor. Reason being that his invention was merely a toy, a curiosity. Even he did not know how it worked apparently, he just knew that somehow it worked. So he could not make any use of it because he did not have the theory behind it. When the theory behind it was learned, then it became an object of science, an object that could be turned into a useful application.
There is no doubt that things are sometimes discuvered by pure luck, however, without the theory behind it, without knowing why a thing works, they are mere curiosities. The job of science is to find out why, to find out how and with that knowledge to make things which work and are useful.
So as I have said, for evolution to be considered science it has to have a stated theory, and proof that the theory works. Care to show such proof or do you wish to continue to sidetrack this evolution thread?
I must say Vade, it is so easy to win a debate with you. You are so kind as to provide proof against your own statements! In post#673 you said:
"We can be sure that there was little oxygen in the atmosphere on earth until life got started, notwithstanding all the lightning."
Gee, I guess that all that life did not do much good eh? Thanks for the help!
Thanks for your continued help in debunking the silly statement made in post#673 by someone who calls himself Vade Retro (perhaps like Clinton you have an evil twin?):
"We can be sure that there was little oxygen in the atmosphere on earth until life got started, notwithstanding all the lightning."
Thanks for illuminating this question and going through so much trouble explaining it. However, I am afraid that the question has already become academic. Vade has been very helpful in debunking his own silly statement about plants creating the atmosphere on earth in post#673.
Without really trying to be accurate, the numbers being used (0.2778 and 8.58) are in a 1:30 ratio not a 1:3 ratio.
There is a very large difference indeed between micro-evolution (if it can even be called evolution) and macro-evolution. Genes are very complex. They consist of chains of from a few dozen, to a few thousand amino acids. You can often change one amino acid in a part of the chain for another without destroying the function of the gene. This can occur by random mutation and be the source of small differences between individuals in a species. Now for macro-evolution to occur, you need completely new genes, completely new functions. This would take the construction by random chance of long chains of amino acids in the exact correct order, it would take other parts of the body recognizing, controlling and making use of this new function. This is quite a task for random mutations to accomplish (which by everyone's admission are quite rare in the nature of things in the first place and detrimental to the individual more than 99% of the time). That is why the challenge to evolutionists is to prove macro-evolution and why this challenge has not been taken by any here or indeed anywhere else.
Well, I was taking Junior's word for it (which he later corrected but I had not seen). Your figures sound more reasonable than his second statement of a 3000 to 1 ratio.
Pun intended, no doubt. (Think black smokers.)
I am sure that "mocro-evolution" was a mistype. If you meant micro-evolution (as it seems to be from the context), I have no problem with it and have not denied that it occurs. However, if you mean MACRO-evolution, yes, certainly post it here for all to see. The poor evolutionists here in spite of their thousands and thousands of links do not seem able to find it.
How helpful you are! I thought you were disagreeing with me! Instead, you are disagreeing with yourself! You keep giving more and more proof that your statement in post#673 is totally ridiculous - just as I said!:
"We can be sure that there was little oxygen in the atmosphere on earth until life got started, notwithstanding all the lightning."-vade retro-
Thanks again!
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