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Evolution debate: State board should reject pseudoscience
Columbus Dispatch ^ | February 17, 2002 | Editorial

Posted on 02/18/2002 4:59:53 AM PST by cracker

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To: Virginia-American
The only known way of replenishing it is life.

What happens in the electrolysis of water?

561 posted on 02/23/2002 12:30:24 PM PST by AndrewC
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To: AndrewC
The stronger form of his disproof in your statement would be "He disproved creation", that would mean life's always been here.

Sometimes, you are very funny.

562 posted on 02/23/2002 12:34:27 PM PST by Nebullis
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To: Nebullis
Sometimes, you are very funny.

Thanks, I see you took it the right way. Off for a while.

563 posted on 02/23/2002 12:37:16 PM PST by AndrewC
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To: Scully
... another question for creationists at large: How to explain substantial segments of genes within our own human DNA that appear to have been "switched off"

There are several creationist-style replies:

1. It's a miracle.
2. Define what you mean by "switched off"
3. You have no proof.
4. No one has ever observed a goldfish turn into a duck.
5. Marx [or Hitler, or Osama] was a Darwinist.

564 posted on 02/23/2002 12:38:42 PM PST by PatrickHenry
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To: PatrickHenry
6. All your evidence is faked by a cabal of atheist materialists.

565 posted on 02/23/2002 12:41:42 PM PST by VadeRetro
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To: PatrickHenry
6) All variation we see today was stored in our genome. You are looking at tomorrow's variation.

7) All things work together for good...

566 posted on 02/23/2002 12:43:06 PM PST by Nebullis
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To: Sabertooth
the dead man and the crater, are based on circumstances which have a history of previous observation. Such is not the case with pre-biotic soup, space aliens, or supernatural creatures.

We've never seen life arise from lifelessness, not in even the one example where we've seen a planet with life. Invoking Occam in this instance is no more compelling than "abra cadabra," a genuflection, or "take me to your leader."

William of Occam would disagree, I'm sure. Look, you have two possible explanations -- one is natural, the other requires us to posit the existence of an unobserved supernatural cause. I can tell from your comment that you're very big on things that are observed, and you are skeptical of things not observed, so the supernatural agent starts from behind in your view, does he not? Anyway, returning to Occam, his advice to us is to choose the simpler hypothesis, and that seems to point to the natural explanation. Or so it seems to me.

567 posted on 02/23/2002 12:45:29 PM PST by PatrickHenry
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To: AndrewC
True enough, but for electrolysis you'd need some sort of battery or dynamo. I guess it's *possible* to have a very large dynamo reacting with the water and splitting it, but nothing like this has ever been observed; the only known example is the rotatiing liquid metal in the earth's core (or simliar things in the gas giants). Also, I'm not a chemist, but it seems unlikely that the hydrogen that's released wouldn't recombine; an atmosphere with 20% O2 and 40% H2 doesn't seem realistic to me somehow.

The point being, if a planet is observed with an atmosphere that's way out of chemical equilibrium, there has to be a source of energy and a mechanism to keep it from reaching equilibrium. In the absence of other exotic processes, like intense magnetic fields or radiation, life is the most likely explanation.

568 posted on 02/23/2002 1:00:18 PM PST by Virginia-American
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To: VadeRetro
According to Fredoneverything.net, religion is already being taught in our "science" classrooms:


Evolutionary Theology

Neither Heresy Nor Theresy

OK, I'm sorry...





I recently wrote a column in which I referred to the theory of evolution as a religion, and received indignant inquiries as to what I meant. This is what I meant:

People are in varying degrees uncomfortable with uncertainty. Some people for example insist that every detail of a journey be planned before they set out; others wing it and figure things out when they get there. The same differing tolerances apply in spades to cosmic questions of origins, destiny, and meaning. Some look at this odd world and say to themselves, “Hmmm. Interesting. Wonder whether there’s a reason for it?” Others, driven I think by a deep unease, want – perhaps “need’ is a better word – a sense that they understand what they really don’t.

Religion has usually provided the desired sense of understanding. The faithful know, or believe they know which serves as well, that the world came into being in a particular way, that we are here for certain reasons, and that we move toward particular ends. This isn’t contemptible, and has appealed to minds of enormous power and subtlety. Faith is comforting, which is not a bad thing. It provides a framework for, and encouragement to, the moral behavior that by common agreement we should embrace. And for many it provides an escape from the crushing pointlessness of a merely material existence.

Yet for many religion doesn’t work. They say, perhaps correctly, that five faiths with five conflicting stories of creation cannot be simultaneously true. The various sacred books are flawed. Angels and their kin are not detectable by elaborate instruments connected to computers, and therefore cannot exist. And so they eschew religion.

Besides, the whole idea of religion seems less plausible in a city choked with traffic, in a life circumscribed by cubicles and plastic rugs than, say, in the vast stillness of a desert at three in the morning, with the wind soughing and that odd sense of nearness to the heavens.

So, out with religion. What then might provide an acceptable illusion of understanding?

Answer: The detailed and catalogued materialism that we call “science.”

In many ways, it is a bad choice. The theoretical sciences consist only in the recognition that when certain circumstances exist, certain consequences follow. They are just a codification of the habits of nature. However, they have great moral force in today’s world. Have they not provided us with computers, cars, medicines, and space stations? Do they not employ obscure runes and mathematical symbols of appalling mysteriousness? They must be true.

Their success has been such as to throw all else into shadow. Any cosmic explanation must be at least consistent with the sciences. This being so, the simple thing to do was to make the sciences the explanation.

This we have done. Instead of saying that Yahweh or Allah created the world, we say that the Big Bang did it. It is not much of an improvement. The Bang suffers from a failure to answer the question usually asked of religious stories of creation: Where did the Bang come from? What came before? (The mind does not well handle questions of infinite regression.) .

Just as in medieval times the literate clergy awed the peasantry by speaking Latin, so today’s clergy emanate from the laboratories to astonish the laity with mispronounced Grecolatinate terminology. Abracadabra, rebus sic stantibus, and acetylcholinesterase have the same effect on unalert minds. All resonate with awful mastery. It takes temerity to suggest that, say, Stephen Hawking’s intelligence merely allows him to be more elaborately bewildered.

Religions require purposiveness. The Greater Materialism of the sciences provided it. Once the Bang had bung (or banged, maybe), why, the stars evolved, and the planets, and then what we usually think of as Evolution kicked in and life began itself. This of course led to that pinnacle of creation, Ourselves. (OK, “creation” isn’t the right word here.) Biological evolution has more emotional import than the collapse of gas clouds into stars, but it is really just a late step in the regnant creation story.

The popular understanding, probably shared in unguarded moments by academic evolutionists though they know better, is that Evolution is a force propelling life toward greater perfection. We speak of ourselves as Higher Primates, for example, though in terms of adaptation to environment we are inferior to tape worms and roaches. Popular evolution is suffused with a progress toward desired ends here that cannot be derived from the physics: Bang, gas, planets, trilobites, Los Angeles.

In short, evolution writ large tells us where we came from, how we got where we are, where we are going, and what the guiding principle is. This is what religions do.

The religious nature of this view becomes manifest in the intense hostility toward skepticism. If I questioned the value of pi, asserted that the earth was flat, or objected to the ideal gas law, I would be regarded as eccentric, but would not be savaged or loathed. People are confident of the value of pi. In any event it poses no threat to their sense of place in a dark and inhospitable universe.

But question evolution and the response will be anger, martial condescension, and rabid denial – usually from people who wouldn’t know icthyostegids from the citric-acid cycle. (You don’t have to know anything about evolution to be fierce about it.) They will be terrified that you might communicate this heresy to children. Further, with painful monotony they will accuse of Christianity. That is, their quick assumption is that you must represent a competing faith.

A difficulty with using physics as a religion (and all the sciences are elaborations of physics) is that you cannot get to things of transcendent importance to humans – beauty, consciousness, love and hatred, good and evil. These are no more contained in, or derivable from, physics than mass is derivable from plane geometry. Yet evolutionists are conscious in most instances, appreciate the lovely, love their dogs and children, and are good people.

They are careful not to notice this, which requires a philosophical jejuneness suited to a sophomore Marxist on his second volume of Sartre. They are much worse if they have heard of logical positivism.

It’s a religion. www.fredoneverything.net

©Fred Reed 2001. All rights reserved.

         


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569 posted on 02/23/2002 1:04:21 PM PST by RobRoy
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To: PatrickHenry
Look, you have two possible explanations -- one is natural, the other requires us to posit the existence of an unobserved supernatural cause. I can tell from your comment that you're very big on things that are observed, and you are skeptical of things not observed, so the supernatural agent starts from behind in your view, does he not? Anyway, returning to Occam, his advice to us is to choose the simpler hypothesis, and that seems to point to the natural explanation. Or so it seems to me.

The question of causes resolves ultimately back to first causes... What causes nature?

Some supernatural explanation, or a natural cause? Our observation here is null, and one explanation is deus ex machina, while the other is a tautology. I'm not sure how Occam helps us in either instance.

That being said, I don't have a problem, either scientific or theological, with the notion of a pre-biotic soup. I just prefer a little more agnosticism in science than I sometimes see.

I tend to think that there are universally governing principles of biology, akin to the laws of physics and chemistry (but probably far more complex), that have thus far eluded us. I think we understand mutagenesis about as well as we understand gravity, and biogenesis a little less so.




570 posted on 02/23/2002 1:16:55 PM PST by Sabertooth
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To: PatrickHenry; VadeRetro; Nebullis
And in three short posts we have a summation of arguments. Remarkable! :)
571 posted on 02/23/2002 1:20:04 PM PST by Scully
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To: VadeRetro
6. All your evidence is faked by a cabal of atheist materialists.

Faked by a cabal of Satan-worshipping atheistic materialists.

(I know, I know, Satan-worshipping and atheistic are mutually exclusive, but logic seldom enters into it)

572 posted on 02/23/2002 1:54:06 PM PST by Junior
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To: RobRoy
The people who think everything is about religion think science is a religion. Fred Reed's column is a classic example.

That people who care about science defend it when it is attacked is not proof that science is a religion. Science is about finding out what's going on. It is worthwhile (and worth defending) even if it will never reveal Ultimate Answers and will never be as bulletproof as saying "Ahura-Mazda did it."

573 posted on 02/23/2002 2:12:50 PM PST by VadeRetro
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To: Junior
Faked by a cabal of Satan-worshipping atheistic materialists.

Satan-worshipping atheistic materialists who prove creationism in two cases:

1) When they agree. (What are the odds of that without a conspiracy?)

2) When they disagree. (They can't even get their story straight!)

574 posted on 02/23/2002 2:16:01 PM PST by VadeRetro
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To: Virginia-American
True enough, but for electrolysis you'd need some sort of battery or dynamo.

Would lightning fill the bill?

575 posted on 02/23/2002 2:23:18 PM PST by AndrewC
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To: AndrewC
Would lightning fill the bill?

No.

576 posted on 02/23/2002 2:24:27 PM PST by VadeRetro
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To: VadeRetro
I think you miss his point. He likes science. I am fascinated by science!

He is trying to see if it passes the smell test as a religion. For many - maybe not you, but many - it does.

577 posted on 02/23/2002 2:46:51 PM PST by RobRoy
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To: AndrewC
I still think you are on the wrong track. You are trying to establish that there is no historical evidence for a particular origin of life theory in order to support your claim that without evidence, such theories constitute faith. There is enough scientific evidence to make certain theories plausible. But life arose, burned the book, and pulled up the ladder behind it. I doubt we'll ever have the historical evidence for the details about life's origins. But, speculations and theories (this field is rife with speculation), even if influenced by philosophy or faith, do not constitute faith. The historical evidence for origins may be beyond science, the evidence for plausibility is not, and this evidence is ever increasing.
578 posted on 02/23/2002 2:55:24 PM PST by Nebullis
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To: RobRoy
He is trying to see if it passes the smell test as a religion. For many - maybe not you, but many - it does.

There is no mystery about what distinguishes science from religion. Religion uses two methods that science does not -- revelation and faith. I suppose I have to define those terms now, or the creationists will be screaming that "it takes more faith to believe in evolution ... " . Okay:

Revelation is the receipt of information in some kind of miraculous transmission, which information comes from a spiritual domain of existence to which we don't have access. The "usual" revelation is from a deity to a prophet. Often the prophet is on a mountaintop when the revelation happens, but this seems to vary from religion to religion.

Faith is the belief in something (often it's a belief in the validity of the message which some prophet has obtained through revelation), notwithstanding the absence of evidence or logical proof for the thing being believed. (And an article of faith, being arbitrary, can easily be distinguished from the axioms of necessity which are embraced by science, such as logic, free will, the validity of sensory evidence, etc.)

So science and religion can't be identical, because they use a very different set of intellectual methods. Science, for example, uses experimentation, which often results in the abandonment of a previously held belief. This is something that religion never does.
579 posted on 02/23/2002 3:11:07 PM PST by PatrickHenry
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To: PatrickHenry; RobRoy
Science, for example, uses experimentation, which often results in the abandonment of a previously held belief.

Science, realizing full well that its knowledge is imperfect, is always seeking to test and clarify. Religion, assured that its knowledge is perfect and complete, seeks converts.

580 posted on 02/23/2002 3:24:51 PM PST by VadeRetro
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