Let's shorten it.
Those he foreknew he predestined = God knew those who ENDOWED WITH FREE CHOICE would choose him. Those who would choose him he predestined. Universal opportunity was an operant principle in God's mind AS HE FOREKNEW"
X, thats really nice, BUT, that is not what these texts say. These texts say nothing to the effect that the foreknowledge of God means he knew man would choose him. It simply is not there. You are making it up out of thin air. Your adding this to the text. There isn't even the hint in these passages that we choose him. There is no scripture which speaks of God's foreknowledge and uses these words. You have shown again, that you are changing the definitions of these words to fit your theology.
I understand the need for you to do this, X. For if God's foreknowledge doesn't mean what you say it means, then indeed predestination is Biblical. You need it to mean this or your whole theology crumbles. But the fact is, X, "foreknowledge" in no way implies God knowing what we would do and then predestinating that decision. That doesn't even make any sense! Listen to yourself. "God new that we would someday choose him, so he chose us" That's akin to having your cake and eating it too.
What I attempted to show you in my last post, X, is that "foreknowledge" when used in other places in the New Testament makes no sense if we apply your definition to this word. To illustrate this absurdity, I quoted 1 Peter 1:20 which uses the very same word! I then tried to apply your definition to this word. Did God's foreknowing Christ's work mean, as your logic would require, that God knew Christ would choose him so He chose Christ. That is so rediculous even you admitted that is not the proper meaning. Well, X, if it is not the proper meaning there, how can it be the proper meaning in Romans 8:29,30?
Hint...do a study on the root word of "foreknow": know; ginosko (Strong's 1097)-many definitions, but which one applies. Obvious, in Romans 8 is God's relationship with the believer. You and I can agree on this, I think. I would think, then, to resolve what this means, we would go to Scripture and look to see if there are any other uses of "foreknow" (proginosko) or it's root "know" (ginosko). Not suprisingly, we can find such verses:
1 Corinthians 8:3 "But if man love God, the same is known of him" Awkward reading so I will quote my greek interlinear "but if anyone love God, he is known by him". This is not saying here, "but if anyone love God, God knew man would love him". It simply says, "he is known by God".
John 10:14 "I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine." Again, a bit awkward, so I will again quote from my greek interlinear, "I am the shepherd good; and I know those that [are] mine, and am known of those that [are] mine.". Is Christ claiming he "knows the choices of his sheep"? Choice isn't even an issue here. He simply knows them. But this, as the previous text I cited is ambiguous? What does it mean to "know". Well, all we need to do is go only one verse more in John 10: John 10:15 "As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father..." (emphasis mine). Here we have the key. To "know" means and implies a deep personal understanding and relationship. Christ "knows" us. He has a deep understanding, knowledge and relationship with us just as Christ "knows" the Father and the Father "knows" Christ. They have a mutual deep understanding, knowledge and relationship of each other. So, we can now easily see what pro (before) ginosko (know) means in this description of the relationship of God to the believer. He before the foundation of the world had a deep understanding, knowledge and relationship to us before we were even created and necessarily BEFORE we knew him. The rest flows easily from here:
Those he deeply and intimately knew as his sheep, he predestined, those he predestined, he called, those he called he justified, and those he justified he also glorified.
So wonderful is this message, God knew me personally before the foundations of the world. I was considered his sheep, his possession before the world was created. How wonderfully humbling and exhilerating this message is that I need do nothing to earn my salvation. It is sealed by him. I am his.
Glory to God in the Highest!
Jean
I'm gonna set aside the discussion of the word "Ppovinoskw" for a moment.
Instead, I want to focus on "those he foreknew he predestined."
Which came first in the revelation of God's activity here, the "foreknowing" or the "predestining?" We can answer this because a sequence is revealed.
LOL!
I understand the need for you to do this, X. For if God's foreknowledge doesn't mean what you say it means, then indeed predestination is Biblical. You need it to mean this or your whole theology crumbles. But the fact is, X, "foreknowledge" in no way implies God knowing what we would do and then predestinating that decision. That doesn't even make any sense! Listen to yourself. "God new that we would someday choose him, so he chose us" That's akin to having your cake and eating it too. What I attempted to show you in my last post, X, is that "foreknowledge" when used in other places in the New Testament makes no sense if we apply your definition to this word. To illustrate this absurdity, I quoted 1 Peter 1:20 which uses the very same word!
Why do you people lie so much! The word in 1Pet.1:20 is not foreknow, but forordained Also, if you want to make that word 'love' and not to foreknow then you have to change Acts.2:23
Him being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledgeof GodMoreover, both the Geneva and Tyndal translate 1Pet.1:20 as 'ordained', the NIV has 'chosen' only the NAV translated it as foreknown
I then tried to apply your definition to this word. Did God's foreknowing Christ's work mean, as your logic would require, that God knew Christ would choose him so He chose Christ.
Yes, it did! Read John 4:34! Christs freely placed his will under that of the Father (Phil.2:6-8) note the word obedient
That is so rediculous even you admitted that is not the proper meaning. Well, X, if it is not the proper meaning there, how can it be the proper meaning in Romans 8:29,30?
No, what is riciculous is how you Calvinists think you can get away with your scripture twisting and distortions!
Hint...do a study on the root word of "foreknow":
Hint, PROginosko is not ginosko
ginosko (Strong's 1097)-many definitions, but which one applies. Obvious, in Romans 8 is God's relationship with the believer.
It is, is it? I see foreknow to know before hand, just like in Acts 2:23!
You and I can agree on this, I think. I would think, then, to resolve what this means, we would go to Scripture and look to see if there are any other uses of "foreknow" (proginosko) or it's root "know" (ginosko). Not suprisingly, we can find such verses:
We are not looking at to 'know' we are looking at the word foreknowledge. I know Calvinists have a very hard time keeping in mind what we are talking about. When you put a prefix of suffix to a word it changes its meaning
To "know" means and implies a deep personal understanding and relationship.
To know before hand Proginosko means that God knows something ahead of something else.
Christ "knows" us. He has a deep understanding, knowledge and relationship with us just as Christ "knows" the Father and the Father "knows" Christ. They have a mutual deep understanding, knowledge and relationship of each other. So, we can now easily see what pro (before) ginosko (know) means in this description of the relationship of God to the believer. He before the foundation of the world had a deep understanding, knowledge and relationship to us before we were even created and necessarily BEFORE we knew him. The rest flows easily from here:
Ofcourse it does, you haven't said one correct thing, but just pretend you know what you are talking about like most Calvinists and move on!
Those he deeply and intimately knew as his sheep, he predestined, those he predestined, he called, those he called he justified, and those he justified he also glorified. So wonderful is this message, God knew me personally before the foundations of the world. I was considered his sheep, his possession before the world was created. How wonderfully humbling and exhilerating this message is that I need do nothing to earn my salvation. It is sealed by him. I am his. Glory to God in the Highest!
Now,after distorting scripture we get the piety! Here is the real definition of 'foreknowledge'
FOREKNOWLEDGE 1. Foreknowledge is the omniscience of God from the standpoint of knowing before hand everything that will every happen and every contingency. 2. It is based on the Greek words "proginöskö" and "prognösis" A. Pro: preposition which indicates "before" in the sense of prior to the fact B. ginöskö: This is the simple verb which means to know. C. gnösis: is the noun which means knowledge. 3. The participation of any person in the plan of God is based on that person making a volitional decision to accept the gift of salvation that is freely offered. "Whoever will may come." Rom. 10:13; Rev. 22:17 4. But God knew in eternity past what decision would be made and accordingly made allowance for that person in His plan. The placement of that person in God's plan from "before the foundation of the world" is called "predestine." It is this "placement" in the plan which is "predestined" but the decision of the person to trust in Christ is not predestined. 5. The relation between "pre-knowledge" and "predestine" is found at Romans 8:29. A. God made a plan for salvation B. Entrance into that plan is based on faith in Christ. C. Each person's faith in Christ is foreknown by the Godhead. D. Therefore, based on that foreknowledge of a decision being made, that person is predestined to eternal salvation. 6. The status in the plan of God is called "election" and it is said to be based on pre-knowledge at 1 Pet. 1:2. 7. The foreknowledge of God also extends into the ministry of the Messiah. A. Acts 2:23 1. God did not plan for the human race to fall into sin. 2. But in that He foreknew that it would happen, he also foreknew the need for a savior. 3. Therefore, foreknowledge saw the need and sovereignty made a plan to meet that need. 1 Peter 1:20 B. Rev. 13:8, The lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 1. Reference to the beginning of the organized world system (kosmos) 2. Thus, when darkness first entered into the universe, God's plan provided the answer for mankind. 8. Foreknowledge related to Israel: Romans 11:2 A. God knew beforehand that Abraham would believe in the Messiah. B. Therefore He made a plan for him and the nation that would come from him. C. The plan for the nation of Israel is unconditional and will never be aborted. That is because it is based on Abe's initial faith and God's resultant faithfulness. 9. Foreknowledge related to our everyday life: Psalm 139:1-4, 13-16 A. This should encourage our confidence in Him because we know that He knows us and can meet our needs as He promised. B. Thus, the plea of v. 23-24