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To: Jerry_M
Where have any of us stated that we do not believe in evangelism?

I did not mean to imply that.

One of the reasons we are so excited about evangelism is due to the fact that we know that God saves men, and saves them completely.

I understand that, and the Reformed church that I was in believed in and practiced evangelism. And the Pastor tried to explain it to my wife and me, but it just didn't wash.

It still comes down to the "fact" that if God has already chosen his elect, then why bother? There's nothing I can do about it.

I'm not trying to insult Calvinists, but like I said this is where I'll never be reconciled with your point of view. If our eternal destiny is pre-determined, then we're rats in a maze. And regardless of how we get through that maze if we weren't picked to get the cheese before the race started, we'll still go hungry.

205 posted on 02/19/2002 5:45:01 AM PST by Ward Smythe
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To: Ward Smythe
Let me suggest that you read J.I. Packer's Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God. Packer shows that a belief in God's absolute sovereignty is essential to evangelism, not opposed to it.

However, even though you didn't mean to imply that Calvinists are cold anti-evangelistic monsters, that did appear to be your case in your earlier post. It would be helpful that you adopt a policy of granting us the charity of believing that we are sincere when we share our beliefs. The fact that there are others on this thread who refuse to grant us that charity is the primary reason that I don't spend much time engaging them.

208 posted on 02/19/2002 5:55:51 AM PST by Jerry_M
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To: Ward Smythe
" If our eternal destiny is pre-determined, then we're rats in a maze. And regardless of how we get through that maze if we weren't picked to get the cheese before the race started, we'll still go hungry."

As we have stated to others, you really don't understand the "doctrines of grace" if you believe that God's exercise of His sovereignty can be described by your "rats in a maze". One of the problems with your analogy is the fact that you think that the rats are vibrant and able to find the cheese (man seeking God, the problem with all "religions").

Even though your analogy is flawed, we can expand on it some in order to present Gospel truth (even though the analogy will still be flawed, we can make it a little less so). Fact is, the rats are all dead, and are not seeking the cheese. All the rats are dead, all of them are undone. However, God reaches down and gives life to some of the rats, and gives them the cheese. They don't have to seek it, he gives it to them freely, and at great cost to Himself. This is the "Gospel" that we proclaim.

216 posted on 02/19/2002 6:13:13 AM PST by Jerry_M
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To: Ward Smythe
Putting it simply, God ordained that the way he would "find" his elect is through evangelism....and he commands that we do it. That is why evangelism is necessary, even under the Calvinist view.
308 posted on 02/19/2002 10:04:42 AM PST by rwfromkansas
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