T.U.L..I.P. and why I disagree with it

violitional theology | unknown | Ron Hossack

[fortheDeclaration]

So where in the passage does it say that Simon was not saved? In Acts 5 we had Christians who were killed for lying to the Holy Spirit.

[irishtenor]

Hey how does an irish tenor become a Calvinist? .... By the grace of God. Sure, add me to your bump list.

[fortheDeclaration]

I have asked you a question. Are you too much of a coward that you must constantly hide behind your slanders and lies and outright bigotry towards us that you will not answer the question put to you. BTW, I have let you off the hook about our Biblical view of man's Depravity. From here forward, you are without excuse. Any time you misstate our position, I will call you the liar that you are.

LOL! Now what are you babbling about? How have I misstated your position? Never mind, you do not even know it yourself!

A question: If a man is not willing to come that he may have life, then what is he? (John 5:40)

He is in big trouble because he is going to Hell!

[fortheDeclaration]

This is what is wrong with Calvinism. You quote Scripture, then presume to interpret it to mean what it was never meant to mean, and then claim whoever does not agree with the teaching is doubting Scripture. It is the Bible that refutes Calvinism, a purely human and pagan perversion of Scripture.

Amen and Amen!

[irishtenor]

Good job, penny...

[fortheDeclaration]

Romans 3 10As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; 11 there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.

yes, but God seeks man (Jn.3:16)

Oh and yes, God knew Adam would sin-so what! I guess that makes God responsible for the sin then?

[185JHP]

A great post. One reason the unregenerates resist the concept of "total depravity" is because their unregeneracy doesn't allow them to know how depraved they are: totally.

[fortheDeclaration]

I retract my initial statement on this thread expressing pleasure with someone actually debating Scripture on this issue.

To bad, I thought I actually had met an honest Calvinist. But that Calvinistic spirit came through after all!

My reason is that well, the author is outright deceiving. He mentions Eph. 1:4, but does not bother to quote the information after the colon in the next verse. I bet this is why: Ephesians 1:5 "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and without blame before him in love, having predestined us to adoption as children by Jesus Christ to himself according to the good pleasure of his will”

And how does that prove your point? You Calvinists love just throwing out statements and expect people to accept what you say. Why did you not just paste the part that was 'deceptive' and then explain how it was?

Then, where th author says only some things are worked by the will of God...Eph. 11: “In whom we also have obtained an inheritance being predestined according to the purpose of him who worketh ALL things after the counsel of his will."

Again, explain what you mean. Everytime a Calvinist sees the word 'Predestination' his mind begins to melt. Note that everytime it is mentioned, it is not referring to salvation per se, but the effects of salvation(Adoption and inheritance)for a Church Age Believer.

Here is a verse to bring you back to reality,

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God...(1Pet.2:1)

[irishtenor]

There is absolutely nothing in the Bible about Adam's moral nature changing after he ate the fruit...... He hid from God, he tried to cover up his sin (with animal hide), He blamed his wife (don't we all). These appear to be moral changes to me.

[irishtenor]

OOPS, he covered himself with leaves. I know that, it was God who covered him with animal skins (a sacrifice provided by God, shed blood...)

[fortheDeclaration]

The thing about "free will" is that it is defined as man's ability to choose between two options. But it ignores any prejudices or fears held by man in question.

For one thing, Calvinism does not define 'freedom' in that way but that man is free to do what he wants. Prejudices and fears are factors but not the determintive issue in choice. Before faith fear will always appear. Faith is overcoming that fear and trusting the words of Christ.

No man's will is completely "free" in any aspect of life. Let's leave aside the sotierlogical application for a minute. Our choices are influenced by a whole multitude of factors -- emotions, society, and so on.

Influence does not negate the fact that the free is still free. A choice can still be made despite all those factors. That some do and some don't shows that it is not the crucial issue. The 'will' is.

The free will position gives man the say in whether or not he's saved. The position is attractive, to be sure, while Calvinism seems cold and heartless to the non-Calvinist. But the shortcoming of the Calvinistic position is that it assumes that man could make the choice for salvation.

I assume you meant 'nonCalvinistic' position. Yes, we believe God will provide the light to make the individual see what the options are.

But I Cor. 1: 18 explains that those which are perishing consider the gospel to be foolishness. The passage later explains that this is such "that no flesh might glory in his presence" (1:29), that is because in the flesh there is nothing good, nothing worthy of glory. When we get to I Cor. 2:10, the Apostle Paul explains how, while the blessings God has awaiting his believers are so great that no human mind could conceive of them, but that "God hath revealed them to us by His Spirit." And continuing: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. What we have here is that the natural man, that is, man not regenerated by the Holy Spirit cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God -- because they are spiritual, and are foolishness to him.

That passage is dealing with the natural man understanding doctrinal issues. He cannot just pick up a Bible and understand it. In regards to the Gospel, God Himself explains the truth to the unbeliever by shedding light into his soul (2Cor.4:6)

Sure, man is free to make any choice he wants. It's just that the natural man will never want to choose Christ.

Then it is not a choice. God is capable of making the unbeliever see the issues before him. Calvinists limit God in their narrow view on Total Depravity.

On free will, see the article I just posted, 'The Myth of Free Will, A Rebuttal'

[xzins]

You misunderstood me. I'm saying that your Wesleyan-Arminian interpretation is trite, brother. That's all.

Not a substantial argument, brother. In fact, it's ad hominem. That's generally a sign that one has no substantial bullets left and has reverted to throwing rocks.

You did say that Satan put a "holy law" inside men's hearts. Now, it's possible that you wrote poorly what you were trying to say, but that "satan the law-scriber" is a fair reading of your post. I guess you've retracted that.

Trite....certainly. You are wise and I am not. You know the bible and I don't. You have logic and I'm destitute of reason. You have concern for salvation and I'm reprobate. You hear from God and I hear only the ramblings of my insufficient mind.

I am nothing but a fool. (for Jesus)

[Hank Kerchief]

There is absolutely nothing in the Bible about Adam's moral nature changing after he ate the fruit...... He hid from God, he tried to cover up his sin (with animal hide), He blamed his wife (don't we all). These appear to be moral changes to me.

All you said is absolutely true. I somewhat regret having said what I said the way I said it. Oh well, you know what I mean.

I was trying to convey that nothing indicates any inheritable part of his nature changed. Certainly one is changed by sin, and profoundly. Sin enslaves, and really makes those who have surrendered to it incapable of clear moral reasoning. It does not change our herditary nature, however, not destroy the reasoning capability.

however, I would agree with you before I let this veiw convince anyone they could get away with sin.

Hank

[ShadowAce]

As a mother let me tell you it takes NO time for a baby to figure out if they cry someone will come to see if they are wet or hungry. So they cry when they get bored and cry when they are lonely they "lie" to get mom to come.

I have a real hard time believing that you are a mother after reading this post. As a parent, I know that infants' only means of communication is "cooing,", laughing, or crying. When they are not happy, they cry. That is not a lie. Heck, in order for it to even be considered a lie, the infant would have to know that it was wrong. How do they know that? Who taught them that intentional misstatements are wrong? You need some serious help.

By the time they are 2 they are getting good at it and by three that not only lie but they steal..are you a parent??

Again, my children have never stolen anything. First of all, they didn't know that taking something without permission was wrong. That knowledge is essential to be convicted of wrongdoing.

You are not a parent. Or--if are really are--you learned nothing from your children.

[irishtenor]

Please read Romans 5:12-20. Death came through Adam. We inherited it.

[RnMomof7]

Do men reject the Gospel no matter if it is Arminian or Calvin or Wesley? Or do they only reject the gospel if it is preached by a Calvinist?

Men reject the Gospel no matter who preaches it! The key point is that Calvinism is suppose to represent 'orthodoxy' and resulted in heresy instead. What ever happened to Princton, the school of Hodge, Warfield and Machan?

It has always been that Satan attacks the truth and that he allows half truths and apostacy to stand. Satan has nothing to fear from a man that saves himself and his neighbor. He fears the hand of God not man

[RnMomof7]

Hey how does an irish tenor become a Calvinist? .... By the grace of God.

Sure now how would I be knowing that would be your answer? :>)

[RnMomof7]

You may need to double check:>) Children learn very early how to manipulate their environment . Babies are wonderful and a blessing ,but they have a sin nature Shadow.That shows itself very early.

Those "terrible two's" are not an act of God. They are willful manipulation and rebellion. I have wonderful kids and grandkids..but they all have a sin nature

My 3 year old granddaughter trying to keep her church collection money by not putting it in the basket. My 2 year old grand daughter saying her "stomach hurt" because she didn't like dinner..but feeling fine in time for desert.

I could go on and on ,but you get the picture.Sin in children is such a given that we give it "developmental "names.,and we expect to see it.

[CCWoody]

He blamed his wife (don't we all).

He blamed God as well: Then the man said, "The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate."

[CCWoody]

You misunderstood me. I'm saying that your Wesleyan-Arminian interpretation is trite, brother. That's all. - the_doc

Not a substantial argument, brother. In fact, it's ad hominem.

Actually, his complaint is against your intrepretation, not the man. If he had said that you are trite, then his argument would be ad hominem. Of course, my complaint is against your intrepretation, not you. From what I've seen, you can worship with me any day. Just don't expect to spend much time sitting or just standing. ;-)