Lord of the Rings Discussion Group (The Green Dragon Inn)

[HairOfTheDog]

Welcome to The Green Dragon Inn

Approaching The Green Dragon Inn
Hobbiton, in The Shire

The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
Pursuing it with eager feet,
Until it joins some larger way
Where many paths and errands meet.
And wither then? I cannot say.
- JRR Tolkien

Politics also goes ever on and on.
This is a place for FReeper Tolkien fans to come and take a break from the impure reality of conservative activism and relax a little with a great story. We (the other co-conspirators and I) would like to study together the writings of Tolkien, beginning together, and discussing as we go through The Lord of the Rings together.

This is a chapter discussion, roughly one chapter per week, with the discussion mostly centered on the books, though of course the movie will be contrasted and compared, and perhaps used to illustrate another interpretation of the story.

When we are ready to move on, someone from the group (maybe me) will ping The Green Dragon List to the new Chapter, but we will continue this one thread until it becomes too cumbersome…. Let me know if you would like to be on - or off - this list. I will for now serve as the Thain of the list.

If you are joining late, jump right in, but please stick to the chapter currently being discussed.

Some have loved this story a long time, and some are newly discovering it. If you fit either category, we invite you to join in, but we would like this thread to stay mostly focused on the chapter at hand and keep moving, but at a pace everyone can keep up with… No jumping ahead, and no lagging behind! If you have other news to report or wish to discuss something Tolkien in more general terms… May we recommend the equally homey Hobbit Hole where my co-conspirators and I frequently have plenty of good talk.

One other request…. This thread will get long. In recognition that images slow down the thread for many and take up bandwidth, let’s keep the posting of images to a minimum on this thread. If there is a great illustration you wish to share, let’s try to use links instead of images wherever possible.

So lets read, listen and become inspired by the many aspects of The Lord of the Rings that touch us deeply and reconnect us to the values we aspire to. Many great discussions have already been had, and I hope that this thread will produce even more. Many FReepers have wonderful things to say about LoTR, whether the fantasy reconnects them with their faith, with their relationships with friends and family, or simply illustrates the splendor of great acts of heroism and sacrifice in the constant battle of virtue versus corruption.

Though it is a work of fiction, we believe the inspiration to be gained can only help us in our larger political goals: to guard and defend our freedom, our culture and our political ideals. May the fellowship and insight gained from this discussion help us to work through the issues that are the basis for our many shared ideals.

Besides, we Tolkien fans* need something to keep us busy during the next two years of waiting for the next two films. If you do not enjoy this story, then please simply leave us be.

*Also known as Geeky Hobbity Weirdos, obsessive fanatics, you name it, we have heard it and we see these names as compliments. In other words: don’t act like a troll, or we will distract you with our endless babble until the morning sun turns you to stone.

[Overtaxed]

Better leave some room in that corner for me....and for the dozen others that "broke the rules" as well... ;)

Oh...in that case let's forget the pints and bring a few pitchers along with a dozen buckets of wings.

[Penny1]

For some reason, this excerpt really got me thinking:

Frodo says, "I feel that as long as the Shire lies behind, safe and comfortable, I shall find wandering more bearable: I shall know that somewhere there is a firm foothold, even if my feet cannot stand there again."

Was this part of the story written while Tolkien's son was away from home? I was remembering reading somewhere that some of the book was written while his son was away, and it doesn't take much to substitute England for The Shire to get a sense of some of what The Shire represented to Tolkien in real life.... Love of one's country is indeed a powerful thing.

-penny

[Overtaxed]

According to the Foreword, The Sadow of the Past is one of the oldest parts and was written way before 1939.

[HairOfTheDog]

Love of one's country is indeed a powerful thing

True, and that love drives many of our main characters doesn't it? - and that in Frodo's case leaving it behind might be the only thing that saves it. "I should like to save the Shire, if I could - though there have been times when I thought the inhabitants too stupid and dull for words, and have felt that an earthquake or an invasion of dragons might be good for them. But I don't feel like that now..." from the same passage you quoted. If he left, perhaps the evil would pass around the Shire and leave with him.

[Carolina]

Did someone say "pints"??????

By all means, let's have some pints.

Ooops, am I skipping ahead again?

[HairOfTheDog]

We will pretend we don't know where that scene happened... after all, it could have been in the Green Dragon!

[Penny1]

I did manage to read the section on The Rings of Power from the Silmarillion last night, and one thing jumped out at me in particular. Gandalf's ring was the Ring of Fire. The name conjured up for me the image of his battle with the balrog in Moria, but that is not at all the emphasis presented in "The Rings of Power." Instead, the Ring of Fire which Gandalf possesses increases his ability to enflame the hearts of others to heroic deeds. Hence his ability to spark in the hobbits their drive and commitment to performing great acts of heroism beyond any that they themselves would beleive possible. I think about how each time one of them steps out, it is Gandalf who is present to spur them on--Frodo and Sam at the beginning, Merry and Pippin later on in the story. All who accept Gandalf's leadership arrive at greater achievements than they believe are even possible, all because of his encouragement and influence.

Just knowing that bit about the Ring of Fire really opened my eyes to Gandalf's role, particularly in how it worked itself out in his relationships with all the characters in the story.

"Take now this Ring," he [Círdan] said; "for thy labours and thy cares will be heavy, but in all it will support thee and defend thee from weariness. For this is the Ring of Fire, and herewith, maybe, thou shalt rekindle hearts to the valour of old in a world that grows chill."

-penny

[HairOfTheDog]

AAHHH Very good find Penny!!

[HairOfTheDog]

Why, do you suppose, the fact that Gandalf bears one of the rings of power was hidden from us, buried in the Silmarillian (and only briefly mentioned one other place). Is this a prize withheld by Tolkien on purpose, one of the hidden layers to be learned only by "varsity" geeks that chose to study further?

[Carolina]

I am a bad Hobbit, yes I am. But I just had to share this.

It's the FOTR Oscar commercial: FOTR Oscar

**Hanging my head in shame and going to corner**

[HairOfTheDog]

You are behaving like something of a Took... but the world would be awfully dull without you wouldn't it?

[Romestamo]

The ring Narya is undoubtedly what Gandalf is refering to when he calls himself the wielder of the flame of Anor (Anor, apart from being an older name for Minas Tirith, also means the sun). Conversely, the balrog is a servant of the flame of Udûn (Udûn is the name of a region in Mordor, but etymologically means "bad darkness," or something along those lines).

[Romestamo]

Oh, and one other thing. That Círdan gave the ring to Olórin (Gandalf) and not to Curunír (Saruman) is considered the source for the grudge that Saruman has always had against Gandalf.

[HairOfTheDog]

While it may be stating the obvious, I think we should take the time to at least hear this again, lest anyone wonder later if the ring could ever be saved....

"A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades... Yes, sooner or later - later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last - sooner or later the dark power will devour him".

"Bilbo knew no more than he told you, I am sure," said Gandalf. "He would certainly never have passed on to you anything that he thought would be a danger, even though I promised to look after you. He thought the ring was very beautiful, and very useful at need; and if anything was wrong or queer, it was himself..."

The ring cannot be possessed by even the pure of purpose for long without the evil turning him, and Bilbo is absolved from guilt for the "dirty trick" inflicted on poor Frodo.

[Penny1]

Spoilers from Return of The King included below:

I'm not sure, but it's emphasized in that chapter of The Silmarillion that he was not revealed as possessing a ring of power until he left Middle Earth...i.e., when we see him leave with Frodo at the end of Return of The King. I think perhaps it is hidden from us because it is also hidden from the rest of the characters. And as to what the ring actually does, I think that is the case with all of the rings of the elves. Without digging deeper, we don't really find out that much...I think perhaps Tolkien was holding out some things for those who would want to dig deeper.

None of the rings of the elves were mentioned in much detail as to their purpose in The Lord of The Rings, and only Galdriel's Nenya was mentioned or displayed at all until we reach the very end of the tale. But I think Tolkien does that--hides certain things from view, yet having them in mind behind the scenes so to speak. In some ways, I think it is a reward for the reader, it's as if he's saying, "keep reading....there are yet more secrets in store...."

-penny

[Carolina]

Okay, back to Chapter 2.

Here is Gandalf keeping his promise to Bilbo about keeping an eye on Frodo:

Then he paid Frodo a brief visit, and after taking a good look at him he went off again. During the next year or two he had turned up fairly often, coming unexpectedly after dusk, and going off without warning before sunrise. He would not discuss his own business and journeys, and seemed chiefly interested in small news about Frodo's health and doings.

[Nine years later......]

They looked hard at one another.

"All well eh?" said Gandalf. "You look the same as ever, Frodo!"

"So do you," Frodo replied; but secretly he thought that Gandalf looked older and more careworn. He pressed him for news of himself and of the wide world...

Something's afoot. Right before this we see Sam talking about the High Elves leaving, "Sailing, sailing, sailing over the sea."

I simply don't understand why people think Tolkien's prose is overbearing.

[HairOfTheDog]

I think you hit on it... If, after all, Gandalf's role is to inspire the hearts of people to valor, then it should be subtle, a mentoring that leads the hero to his own decision. For the hero to have known that there was a greater power at work could lead the reader to think that Gandalf was driving people through trickery, no more noble than Saruman's voice.

And yet Gandalf says "There are other forces at work besides the will of evil, and that is an encouraging thought" Clearly Gandalf is once again saying mysterious things without explaining all of their meanings, unless we dig deeper.

[Romestamo]

Good point. My opinion has always been that Gandalf looked more careworn because of all the work that went into capturing and interrogating Gollum, as well as general stress from worry that the ring is the One Ring.

As for the departing elves, I have a bit of sympathy for them. Most of them were undoubtedly around when they went through so much trouble to defeat Sauron a first time (and some maybe still from the battles with Morgoth), and the knowledge that he was returning stronger than ever would make me want to up and quit, too.

[Penny1]

I also thought it was encouraging how Gandalf said that Bilbo would be all right, that the ring would have no serious lasting effect on him. In fact, Bilbo came out of the whole affair much more "whole" than Frodo.

The scene where Frodo and Gandalf talk about destroying the ring, and seeing how difficult it would be, is quite sobering. Particularly, Gandalf saying "I could not 'make' you [destroy it]--except by force, which would break your mind." I found myself thinking that it was likely this was what was being hinted at in the movie when Frodo reacts in such pain at Gimli striking the ring with his axe. Yikes.

The significance of Bilbo "giving" the ring to Frodo is fascinating to me too. I believe this is the only instance up to that point of the history of The Ring of Power of anyone "giving" the One Ring to anyone--always before it was attained through violence or through trickery and through the ring's own choosing. But in Bilbo giving the ring to Frodo, the ring's power to choose its bearer is further broken. How crucial it was that Bilbo have the strength of will to give it up!

-penny

[HairOfTheDog]

I like lingering over this stuff.... because it is my favorite part of the story. Watching the film as many times as I have, I find the beginning almost new every time. Each time, I love the little things about the Shire, the naivety of the characters, but the tale quickly turns dark and dangerous, and by the time I leave the theater, I have nearly forgotten the innocence that was.

Selfish it was, of me to move on when Jen is not around this weekend, because she loves this part too... we need to stay here until she can chime in.