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To: fortheDeclaration; Jerry_M; the_doc; xzins; newblood
Prefatory note to newblood: I am basically laying the same post I made to you last night because it really belongs here more than the Effects of Regeneration thread. I will then proceed to answer the points you have made to that post.

Yes, He does laugh, because He knows that He is both Sovereign and man is free to accept or reject Him,

Thou are worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power for thou hast created all things and for thy pleasure they are and were created (Rev.4:11)

And say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn ye, turn ye, from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Stupid question for God to ask isn't it? Since they were all predestinanted to do so? Well, I better stop, I know how upset you get when I set one scripture against another!

It seems pretty obvious that you have only one goal here and that is to mock. Do you even stop to consider that you actually do pit scripture against scripture and mock the very Word of God?

Acts 4:27-28 "For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done."

I will freely affirm that God does not take any pleasure in the death of the wicked. You, however, proceed from the false assumption that man is the ultimate end to salvation. He is not. God employs His sovereignty to display the great object of His delight, His Glory. He does all that he does to magnify the worth of His glory.
God's saving design are penultimate, not ultimate. Redemption, salvation, and restoration are not God's ultimate goal. These He performs for the sake of something greater: namely, the enjoyment He has in glorifying Himself. - John Piper

God would be unrighteous if he valued anything more than what is supremely valuable. And what is supremely valuable is His glory. If God did not value Himself above all other things, then He would cease to be God. He would deny the infinite worth of His own Glory and He would be implying that there is something more valuable outside of Himself. God would be an idolater.

Jonathan Edwards himself struggled greatly with the doctrine of God's sovereignty, but he does have some insightful words to help understand exactly how God can be pleased to allow the death of the wicked and still not have any pleasure from their death.

When a distinction is made between God's revealed will and his secret will, or his will of command and decree, "will" is certainly in that distinction taken in two senses. His will of decree, is not his will in the same sense as his will of command is. Therefore, it is no difficulty at all to suppose, that the one may be otherwise than the other: his will in both senses is his inclination. But when we say he wills virtue, or loves virtue, or the happiness of his creature; thereby is intended, that virtue, or the creature's happiness, absolutely and simply considered, is agreeable to the inclination of his nature.
His will of decree is his inclination to a thing, not as to that thing absolutely and simply, but with respect to the universality of things, that have been, are, or shall be. So God, though he hates a thing as it is simply, may incline to it with reference to the universality of things. Though he hates sin in itself, yet he may will to permit it, for the greater promotion of holiness in this unversality, including all things, and at all times. So, though he has no inclination to a creature's misery, considered absolutely, yet he may will it, for the greater promotion of happiness in this universality.

Therefore, when you read Ezekiel 18, you must keep in mind that the salvation of the wicked is not foremost in God's purpose. The display of His glory is.

When you understand that God looks on both at the same time, you will understand Ezekiel 18 in its proper perspective. God delights in the display of His glory and He does not have any pleasure in the death of the wicked.

And this leaves me with a question. God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked when considering them individually, that is sure. However, God takes infinite pleasure in the display of His glory. Were God to regard man above His glory, He would be an idolater. And, as Jerry has pointed out and as I have pointed out, if God truly does desire to save all men everywhere, then He doesn't seem to be very motivated to realize His desires. You will quote to me the citadel of man's free will.

Well, are you suggesting that men will burn in hell because God's hands are tied and the saints will not get out and evangelize the world? Are you suggesting that God has made salvation impossible because He must honor man's free will? Will the Almighty say on Judgement day: "I would have you saved, but it's not my fault. Blame Johnny because he wouldn't submit to My will and so you were never given the chance. Oh, well, enjoy the Lake of Fire."

55 posted on 02/14/2002 7:07:46 PM PST by CCWoody
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To: CCWoody
Woody, haven't read it yet. Do you define glory in the basic post?
56 posted on 02/14/2002 7:19:39 PM PST by xzins
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To: newblood
Is God pleased to be displeased? Can God be displeased by His own actions? Then God cannot choose eternal death for one man while granting another eternal life without the first man's consent to sin and the second's to life. God will not make a sinner repent or make a man choose sin. God has given this power of choice to man. - newblood

God has ordained eternal death for those who choose to hate Him. God has not made them choose sin. They have freely chosen to Hate him.

God has also by His grace and for the sake of His Name quickened out of those who choose to hate Him a number known only to Him from every nation and tribe and tongue and people group without their prior consent. He caused the light of His glory to shine to their dead spirits and has transformed their dead spirits into living spirits. When our spirits saw the glory of the Living God in faith, we fell to our knees and repented of all our evil. God did not make us repent. We repented of our own free will when we saw the Radiant Brightness of our Creator.

God views the macrocosm world that He created to display His glory and has immense pleasure in it. - CCWoody

Gen 6: 6 ¶ And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
8 ¶ But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

So, you would be suggesting with this verse that God neither has pleasure when looking and the individual wicked and God also has no pleasure in the display of His glory? BTW, how did Noah find grace? Was he the only righteous person on the whole earth? Did God not know that this was going to happen?

Since there is no other name given by which a man may be saved, how can a person call upon Y'shua and be saved if they never ever have a chance to hear the gospel? In what sense does God call to salvation these people? - CCWoody

Psalms 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
Psalms 97:6 The heavens declare his righteousness, and all the people see his glory
Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Ok, you have made a convincing case that man is without excuse. How many of these people who never ever hear the gospel one time will be saved?

57 posted on 02/14/2002 7:37:29 PM PST by CCWoody
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To: newblood
Here is the last of your arguments from the other thread:


If God did not value Himself above all other things, then He would cease to be God. - CCWoody

And yet God was willing to turn His back on His own Son (who became sin for us) so we might have fellowship with God.

Were God to regard man above His glory, He would be an idolater. - CCWoody

I believe Jesus on the cross chose to regard man above Himself for the ultimate glory of God.

Jon. 13:8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.

It would seem that you as well agree that what God did was ultimately for His glory. I will maintain that all of these acts are ultimately for His glory. God is seeking His glory in all that He does. Man benefits from the zeal that God seeks His own glory. If God were to regard anything greater than His name, He would be in idolatry. (P.S. Christ will still be a Servant at the Second Coming and after. He will not give up His glory.)

When the Father looks on the Son, He beholds the brightness of His own glory and the express image of His own person. When God contemplates His own glory in the image of the Son it brings Him great delight (Isaiah 42:1): Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights! The very method with which God has chosen to effect salvation is designed to reveal His own Glory in the Person of the Son.

John 17:4-5 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
John 12:28-28 "Now is My soul troubled, and what shall I say? `Father, save Me from this hour'? But for this cause came I unto this hour. Father, glorify Thy name." Then there came a voice from Heaven, saying, "I HAVE BOTH GLORIFIED IT, AND WILL GLORIFY IT AGAIN."

God did indeed turn His back upon His Son. He did so ultimately for His own glory. Salvation is not the ultimate end of the Cross Work; it is penultimate to the ultimate goal of His glory.

…God's saving design are penultimate, not ultimate. Redemption, salvation, and restoration are not God's ultimate goal. These He performs for the sake of something greater: namely, the enjoyment He has in glorifying Himself. - John Piper

All the works of God ultimately focus the praises of His redeemed people on the One who is his great delight. God certainly could have fashioned redemption had He so desired so that the Blood of His Son would not have been shed. It would have certainly not had the same impact in the sheer magnitude of the gratitude, awe and wonder that this saint feels when he looks at the cross.

There on a tree hangs the King of Glory, cursed and bleeding for me. As the blood and water pooled after the spear was thrust in, so too the praises of His people are gathered together. He has been given a Name more to be gloried than any other name.

For the joy that was set before Him, Christ endured the cross and has sat down at the right hand of the Father (Hebrews 12:2). We are to look to Him. The Cross of Christ has focused the praises of His redeemed people. Christ has sat down and returned to the glory that He had. And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was (John 17:4).

112 posted on 02/17/2002 3:19:05 PM PST by CCWoody
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