Posted on 02/13/2002 5:30:35 PM PST by CCWoody
Marines believe in 'one shot' 'one kill' very specfic.
Calvinist Preach the gospel to 'em all and let God sort 'em out.
Calvinist teach that God has already sorted them out in eternity past with His decree. Their fate has long been determined
Arminian God please, please, please ignore what I say about free will and change their hearts.
No, Arminians actually take all those 'whosoevers' and 'all's' as being real not some cosmic joke that God is playing on man
God He who sits in the heavens laughs.
Yes, He does laugh, because He knows that He is both Sovereign and man is free to accept or reject Him,
Thou are worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and powerL for thou hast created all things and for thy pleasure they are and were created (Rev.4:11)
And say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn ye, turn ye, from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Stupid question for God to ask isn't it? Since they were all predestinanted to do so? Well, I better stop, I know how upset you get when I set one scripture against another!
Well, I know that you read at least part of my article. In what way did God want to save and then die for the Egyptians when He ripped the wheels off of their chariots and then drowned them in the sea? In what way did God want to save and then die for the Hebrew generation He was disgusted with for 40 years, swearing in His wrath that they would not enter into His rest? In what way did God want to save and then die for Herod and Pilate and the Jews and Greeks who came together to do whatsoever He had determined before to be done in killing His Son? In what way did God want to save and then die for that fornicator and godless Esau whom He hated? In what way does God want to save and died for all those who never ever got a chance to hear the gospel of the kingdom and trust in the Name of Jesus?
Certainly.
Most Calvinists (myself included) plead with men to be saved. We support missions, and invest ourselves in seeing that every man hears the Gospel.
Most Arminians pray to God to save men, and ask that He change their hearts so that they can come to the knowledge of the truth.
In these ways, Calvinists act like Arminians, and Arminians pray like Calvinists.
As we have discussed elsewhere in the past. If you really believe that it is God's deepest desire that all men everywhere be saved you certainly must conclude that He is not doing a very good job of carrying out His wishes.
Why, for heaven's sake, are there millions who perish without ever once hearing the Gospel?
(Don't worry, I am not really willing to engage you in lengthy discussion, you have shown your true colors too many times in the past for me to fall into that trap.)
Was Lazarus saved before he went into the grave or after?(Jn.11:24)
Just as no one can raise themselves from death, no one can resist His call.
Please, do not start the TULIP system in the middle! You have to assume that not all are being called (Jn.12:32). You have to assume that God is not concerned about who would freely accept His free gift. After all, what this post (that I alluded to) was that God made it easy to be saved (Acts.16:31)
We are His and He will get all His sheep. He will leave the ninty and nine to go after the one. To say you have anything to do with salvation is blasphemy to His power and glory.
Please read Rom.4:4-5 and tell me where faith has anything to do with a work?
You are as dead as an armadillio in the interstate until he raises you to new life.
So, 'regeneration' preceeds faith. Funny, I thought we were saved by faith (Rom.3:22) or through faith,(Eph.2:8), never before faith!
Moreover,if we are as 'dead' as you say we are, why does God give man the ability to seek him (Acts. 17:27)
If He can raise stones to worship Him, can He not raise a wad of dirt as ourselves to glorify Him? We are the created, He is the Creator.
So far you given me a lot of nice pious language. Now, why are some saved and not all
The call is universal
So God is really kidding us then? He sends out a message that all can be saved but really only those who He has already decided on! Those that respond
Respond? you mean of their own free will? You mean without irresistable 'grace'? Come on, are you an Arminian? Oh, I forgot, you did say that the call was 'irresistable' so we 'respond' like 'robots'
are His, those that don't are the spawn of Satan and he is their father. His sheep know His voice and respond.
Maybe, those who respond to His voice want to!
If you don't respond, you are not His.
Why do you say 'don't' when the word should be 'can't'. Oh, thats right, Calvinists want to pretend those going to hell (forordained to do so) still are responsible, and not God who sent them there!
Seems simple enough to me.
Well, I am glad it is so simple for you. Now, the question that might bother some people is why would a loving God send most of His creation to the Lake of Fire, when He could have saved them? Just a small problem that tends to seem to go against the quality of Love (1Jn.4:8)
What non-Calvinist's can't seem to understand is that some people are created to go to hell.
They are! Well, throw out all the Scriptures where God says He gets no pleasure in the death of the Wicked, that He weeps over Jerusalem, that He wanted Ninevah saved because He created them.
They were fashioned in dishonour. They are NOT His. Judas was born to hell.
He was was he? The why did He state
Woe unto the world because of offences! For it must needs that offences come, but woe to that man by whom the offience cometh (Mat.18:7)It sounds that one has a choice in doing wickedness.
He was not of the called out. Yet Judas brought glory to the Father by fullfiling his purpose since the foundation of the world. God will recieve His glory, even if it means sending millions to hell. He recieves glory either way.
Well, that does sum up Calvinism! Now, the fact that many are going to Hell despite what God has done is what glorifies Him, because He has shown Himself a perfect, loving Creator, who did everything He could to save His creatures. But, having given them free will, to choose for or against Him, He allows that decision to stand, despite what He would prefer!
What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it?(Is.5:4)
Does the wrath of man praise God, yes it does (Ps.76:10) Why? (this is the question that Calvinists never seem to get around to asking) Because through His patience and mercy He endured the wicked until they had hardened their will against Him where His mercy and love could not reach them,
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known (so far all the Calvinists are nodding their collective heads-yea,yea!)endured with much longsuffering the vassels of wrath fitted to destruction(Rom.9:22)
How were they vessels prepared for destruction? God always knew what their decisions would be (Rom.8:29).
Yet, knowing what those decisions would be God still sought them, hardening them, not with a 'sovereign decree' but with His mercy and kindness (Rom.1:20-21) 'neither were they thankful'.
Did Jesus wish to raise all the dead FTD? Or did He only call forth the one He chose?
A: Only one, but the light bulb has to want to be changed.
Q: How many Calvinists does it take to change a light bulb?
A: Trick question - none, only God can change the light bulb.
Outstanding point!
And I do it much more fervently now that I am a Calvinist, since I know only He can save. The American Reformed Baptist Association has some wonderful missionaries in places from Israel to Argentina and places in between and we support them everyway we can, but none more than in prayer.
Yes, He does laugh, because He knows that He is both Sovereign and man is free to accept or reject Him,
Thou are worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power for thou hast created all things and for thy pleasure they are and were created (Rev.4:11)Stupid question for God to ask isn't it? Since they were all predestinanted to do so? Well, I better stop, I know how upset you get when I set one scripture against another!And say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn ye, turn ye, from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
It seems pretty obvious that you have only one goal here and that is to mock. Do you even stop to consider that you actually do pit scripture against scripture and mock the very Word of God?
Acts 4:27-28 "For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done."
…God's saving design are penultimate, not ultimate. Redemption, salvation, and restoration are not God's ultimate goal. These He performs for the sake of something greater: namely, the enjoyment He has in glorifying Himself. - John Piper
God would be unrighteous if he valued anything more than what is supremely valuable. And what is supremely valuable is His glory. If God did not value Himself above all other things, then He would cease to be God. He would deny the infinite worth of His own Glory and He would be implying that there is something more valuable outside of Himself. God would be an idolater.
Jonathan Edwards himself struggled greatly with the doctrine of God's sovereignty, but he does have some insightful words to help understand exactly how God can be pleased to allow the death of the wicked and still not have any pleasure from their death.When a distinction is made between God's revealed will and his secret will, or his will of command and decree, "will" is certainly in that distinction taken in two senses. His will of decree, is not his will in the same sense as his will of command is. Therefore, it is no difficulty at all to suppose, that the one may be otherwise than the other: his will in both senses is his inclination. But when we say he wills virtue, or loves virtue, or the happiness of his creature; thereby is intended, that virtue, or the creature's happiness, absolutely and simply considered, is agreeable to the inclination of his nature.
His will of decree is his inclination to a thing, not as to that thing absolutely and simply, but with respect to the universality of things, that have been, are, or shall be. So God, though he hates a thing as it is simply, may incline to it with reference to the universality of things. Though he hates sin in itself, yet he may will to permit it, for the greater promotion of holiness in this unversality, including all things, and at all times. So, though he has no inclination to a creature's misery, considered absolutely, yet he may will it, for the greater promotion of happiness in this universality.
Therefore, when you read Ezekiel 18, you must keep in mind that the salvation of the wicked is not foremost in God's purpose. The display of His glory is.
When you understand that God looks on both at the same time, you will understand Ezekiel 18 in its proper perspective. God delights in the display of His glory and He does not have any pleasure in the death of the wicked.
And this leaves me with a question. God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked when considering them individually, that is sure. However, God takes infinite pleasure in the display of His glory. Were God to regard man above His glory, He would be an idolater. And, as Jerry has pointed out and as I have pointed out, if God truly does desire to save all men everywhere, then He doesn't seem to be very motivated to realize His desires. You will quote to me the citadel of man's free will.
Well, are you suggesting that men will burn in hell because God's hands are tied and the saints will not get out and evangelize the world? Are you suggesting that God has made salvation impossible because He must honor man's free will? Will the Almighty say on Judgement day: "I would have you saved, but it's not my fault. Blame Johnny because he wouldn't submit to My will and so you were never given the chance. Oh, well, enjoy the Lake of Fire."
Is God pleased to be displeased? Can God be displeased by His own actions? Then God cannot choose eternal death for one man while granting another eternal life without the first man's consent to sin and the second's to life. God will not make a sinner repent or make a man choose sin. God has given this power of choice to man. - newblood
God has ordained eternal death for those who choose to hate Him. God has not made them choose sin. They have freely chosen to Hate him.
God has also by His grace and for the sake of His Name quickened out of those who choose to hate Him a number known only to Him from every nation and tribe and tongue and people group without their prior consent. He caused the light of His glory to shine to their dead spirits and has transformed their dead spirits into living spirits. When our spirits saw the glory of the Living God in faith, we fell to our knees and repented of all our evil. God did not make us repent. We repented of our own free will when we saw the Radiant Brightness of our Creator.
God views the macrocosm world that He created to display His glory and has immense pleasure in it. - CCWoody
Gen 6: 6 ¶ And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
8 ¶ But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
So, you would be suggesting with this verse that God neither has pleasure when looking and the individual wicked and God also has no pleasure in the display of His glory? BTW, how did Noah find grace? Was he the only righteous person on the whole earth? Did God not know that this was going to happen?
Since there is no other name given by which a man may be saved, how can a person call upon Y'shua and be saved if they never ever have a chance to hear the gospel? In what sense does God call to salvation these people? - CCWoody
Psalms 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
Psalms 97:6 The heavens declare his righteousness, and all the people see his glory
Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Ok, you have made a convincing case that man is without excuse. How many of these people who never ever hear the gospel one time will be saved?
In brief, yes and also at all points in between. I began with a definition and I finished with a definition. The whole post is something of a definition of God's glory:
The term "glory of God" generally refers to the visible splendor or moral beauty of God. With the Psalmist, I too have a strong desire to behold the beauty of the LORD (Psalm 27:4), to simply feel awe and wonder in all that He is. It is for this purpose that God has created man; for His Glory (Revelation 4:11)....He will not give up the glory of being the grace giver. Our God works for those who wait for Him (Isaiah 30:18, 64:4).
Are all the dead going to raised sometime? (Dan.12:2,Phil.2:10 Rev.20)
So, I guess the 'call' is universal and effecious? Can a 'corpse' seek God (Acts.17:27)?
I can Amen that.As I said, it might well be that Christians who study the Scriptures are not concerned about theological systems but the reality of what the Bible teaches, and those things that you noted are taught.
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