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To: Nebullis
Ah, I can't help respond to such a polite request. The literature is available to all. Look it up if you are interested. I gave you the search keys.
Talk, talk.

I asked one reasonable question on this thread... and I have to do your work for you?


98 posted on 02/03/2002 5:29:06 PM PST by Sabertooth
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To: Sabertooth
This page is a good place to start.

Here's the story on the Long Beach sand worms (IMO the clearest example from the article):

5.7 Speciation in a Lab Rat Worm, Nereis acuminata In 1964 five or six individuals of the polychaete worm, Nereis acuminata, were collected in Long Beach Harbor, California. These were allowed to grow into a population of thousands of individuals. Four pairs from this population were transferred to the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute. For over 20 years these worms were used as test organisms in environmental toxicology. From 1986 to 1991 the Long Beach area was searched for populations of the worm. Two populations, P1 and P2, were found. Weinberg, et al. (1992) performed tests on these two populations and the Woods Hole population (WH) for both postmating and premating isolation. To test for postmating isolation, they looked at whether broods from crosses were successfully reared. The results below give the percentage of successful rearings for each group of crosses.

WH X WH - 75%
P1 X P1 - 95%
P2 X P2 - 80%
P1 X P2 - 77%
WH X P1 - 0%
WH X P2 - 0%
They also found statistically significant premating isolation between the WH population and the field populations. Finally, the Woods Hole population showed slightly different karyotypes from the field populations.

IOW, the 2 native Long Beach samples mated successfully with each other, and the worms who had emigrated to Massachusetts could mate with their own kind, but the 2 populations could not mate with each other at all.

This took 28 years of complete isolation to happen. (I have no idea how many sand worm generations that is.)

99 posted on 02/03/2002 5:51:57 PM PST by jennyp
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To: Sabertooth ; Nebullis ; Quila
Great thread. I am enjoying the high level of dialogue between the three of you.

A few points about the speciation issue....

1) Since, as Nebie notes, micro and macro evolution SEEM to occur by different mechanisms, the noted instances which seem to be the former don't apply as examples of the latter.

2) The Bible, as I read it, is much more ameniable to plant evolution than animal evolution (check the wording in Genesis One). Those examples on Quila's link where chromosomes change seem to be of plants.

3) SPeciation itself is not evidence for macroevolution, It is just evidence that a generalized type tends to break into a number of more specailized or isolated types due to a loss of information. One species of ducks splitting into two species due to extinction of a middle population that can interbreed with both is NOT the type of 'evolution' that can produce birds from reptiles, or even hummingbirds from Owls. This is not the same as animals developing complex new structures.

As for how Creation events would occur...its just like they do now. Except the second Person of the Trinity did what scientists are doing right now. Scientists are taking genes from two very different species and combining them to get new creatures that would never have arisen by chance alone. For example, they took jellyfish glow genes and put them in a monkey. Result- glowing monkey.

If they can, and did, do it, then why couldn't God the Son?

104 posted on 02/03/2002 6:10:31 PM PST by Ahban
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