Posted on 02/03/2002 9:07:58 AM PST by Sabertooth
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Here's where I see the crux of the Creation vs. Evolution debate, and most appear to miss it: |
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Forget possible transitional forms, stratigraphy, and radiological clocks... at some level, both Creationists and Evolutionists wander back to singularities and have to cope with the issue of spontaneous cause. |
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Creationists say "God."
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Evolutionists say "random spontaneous mutagenic speciation."
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01: Site that debunks virtually all of creationism's fallacies. Excellent resource.
02: Creation "Science" Debunked.
03: Creationism and Pseudo Science. Familiar cartoon then lots of links.
04: The SKEPTIC annotated bibliography. Amazingly great meta-site!
05: The Evidence for Human Evolution. For the "no evidence" crowd.
06: Massive mega-site with thousands of links on evolution, creationism, young earth, etc..
07: Another amazing site full of links debunking creationism.
08: Creationism and Pseudo Science. Great cartoon!
09: Glenn R. Morton's site about creationism's fallacies. Another jennyp contribution.
11: Is Evolution Science?. Successful PREDICTIONS of evolution (Moonman62).
12: Five Major Misconceptions about Evolution. On point and well-written.
13: Frequently Asked But Never Answered Questions. A creationist nightmare!
14: DARWIN, FULL TEXT OF HIS WRITINGS. The original ee-voe-lou-shunist.
The foregoing was just a tiny sample. So that everyone will have access to the accumulated "Creationism vs. Evolution" threads which have previously appeared on FreeRepublic, plus links to hundreds of sites with a vast amount of information on this topic, here's Junior's massive work, available for all to review: The Ultimate Creation vs. Evolution Resource [ver 14].
"science uncovered the facts"...???
Pretty funny...using consciousness(science) to deny its intelligence---originator---designer!
Isn't that like having an eye witness at a bank robbery---the bank robber??
[the food for thought is that religion always keeps a step ahead of a science that chips away at religious assumptions]
159 posted on 2/4/02 3:13 AM Pacific by The Raven(maniac)
Chef looney---what a recipe!
Is this like asking a forgerer--counterfeiter to work at the bank--mint...a grand jury of loons!
PC--evolution madness---the bogus/counterfeit is real-tender and the real is trashed--worthless.
What would a title company say when you show them your crayon scribbles--babbles---laugh you outta there with your Brooklyn bridge thesis/deed!
God created---OWNS science...man invented evolution--DENIAL--spontaneous life...matter too?
Would that be like saying your grandparents never existed---you never saw them---believed them.
All because you say--think so?
Evolution is false anti-science/anti-theism--a hoax!
Religion-ideology-culture-history has nothing to do with it---yeah in a murder case ask the murderer to supply all the evidence to the prosecuter and void out everything else.
Make it up all and the get your friends--the blind and the deaf-dumb to judge the case--"evidence"---real science--objectivity--whole hearted--headed honesty by goons!
Birds did not come from reptiles. Whales did not come from land creatures. Land creatures did not come from pseudo-walking fish. Creatures were created in their basic kinds, so were plants. DNA variation allows for different looking dogs, different cats, different elephants and such.
I believe the greatest cause of differences is genetic isolation of species through migration, and that is whon most clearly in the Humans. Look at the hair color, skin color, eye appearance of different human cultures.
Cro-magnon and Neanderthal were ust examples of how ugly humans can get due to bad diets. So is Hillary.
One time it was considered truth that the world was flat since science could not prove otherwise.Contrary to popular impression, Aristotle and later Hellenistic scientists believed that the earth was spherical. The battle over whether the earth was flat was waged at the time of Socrates, and the flat earthers lost out. In the middle ages, in the depth of the dark ages, some thinkers tried to revive a flat earth theory, but certainly over the past couple of thousand years it’s been the dominant view that the earth is spherical.
Please quote the passages from Darwin's writings where he advocates atheism.
Exactly. And your continued speculation on the origins of species is based upon an assumption that it was entirely naturalistic and that there was nothing "supernatural" about it. Unfortunatly just because you can attempt to explain how it might have occurred does not mean that that is what happened.
You're like the defense attorney who says "forget about my client's fingerprints on the murder weapon, the DNA evidence linking my client to the crime scene, the 10 witnesses, and the videotape - what do you really got?"
Still won't answer the question?
The evidence from the fossil record is that a lot of species once existed, but are now extinct. A lot of these forms look intermediate beween others, and a very reasonable interpretation of this is that we are looking at transitional forms of a sort. Many of them probably are.
But just as the phenomenon of convergent evolution cautions against assuming that morphologically similar species are closely related, we ought to be cautious about assuming all apparently transitional species are, in fact, that. In my opinion, some are, some aren't.
Another, very reasonable explanation for some of what appear to be transitional forms is the possibility of divergent forms filling in a progression of niches.
I was also keeping in mind the tendency of big "C" Creationists to keep demanding forms that are yet more transitional. I wanted to avoid all of that. Notice that the question I asked did not mention God or Creation. My preamble did, for the purpose of setting those concepts aside. The question I posed is perfectly scieintific, and could reasonably posed in any mainstream biology lecture in the world.
But you keep falling back to the presumption that because I have a question about some narrow aspect of evolutionary theory, I am a denier of all of it. I'm not. I set aside the issue of transitional forms not to deny evolution, because that's not the question... I'm looking narrowly at the mechanism for speciation. What causes the origin of a new species?
I set aside stratigraphy and radiometric clocks, not because I deny them, the age of the Earth, or the age of the universe. I set them aside because they don't inform the question I've posed.
Here's where your legal analogy is shaky... I can stipulate all of the prosecutor's evidence and still question the conclusion of murder... if say, I'm claiming self-defense. Then none of the evidence you mentioned is germane to the question of cause: what caused or motivated the killing?
Are you beginning to get this yet?
Here's the question yet again,
"Where is the observation or evidence of random spontaneous mutagenic speciation?"
To reiterate: the fossil record indicates very strongly that speciation has taken place. It is silent on whether or not that speciation was random, spontaneous, and mutagenic.
Do you want to try answering that now?
Was my post at #169 clear enough? I'm trying to keep the focus of this thread out of the typical Creationist/Evolutionist rut.
How about English--clear--writing...
Yes, and lightning came from the gods, and rain came through holes in the firmament (the last one is from the same book the creationists are basing their science on). Science progresses and explains more and more, but to fundamentalists, religion doesn't progress, it stays static with the knowledge contained in documents thousands of years old.
This seriously reminds me of the drug-induced lyrics of Skinny Puppy. I'm not kidding.
BTW, most cases of "spontaneous" mutagencity are lethal.
I've read the Bible a couple of times, and Genesis dozens. Creationists may say that (though I can't recall hearing it), but the Bible doesn't.
"Holes in the firmament?"
Heh! Good to have a laugh on this thread.
Would skinny puppies indicate a more fit species, or less?
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