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1 posted on 02/01/2002 9:55:31 AM PST by Exnihilo
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To: Exnihilo
Apparently everyone enjoys these 'discussions of what it means to have freedom and liberty', so here you go! Let's have a mature discussion, free from name calling and childish behavior.
2 posted on 02/01/2002 9:56:30 AM PST by Exnihilo
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To: Exnihilo
Economists call the effects an activity has on others 'externalities'

Bork hasn't addressed the externalities of censorship:

One way the Nazis cleansed the country of "un-German" thoughts was through censorship. A "brown shirt" (member of the SA) throws some more fuel--"un-German" books-- into a roaring fire on the Opernplatz in Berlin. May 10, 1933.
Photo credit: USHMM Photo Archives

5 posted on 02/01/2002 10:13:35 AM PST by freeeee
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To: Exnihilo
Bork is not qualified to dictate morality to me. After reading this twisted rationalization for totalitarianism, I'm glad he didn't make it to the bench.
12 posted on 02/01/2002 10:19:42 AM PST by NC_Libertarian
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To: Exnihilo
The second bit of advice --'If it offends you, don't buy it' -- is both lulling and destructive. Whether you buy it or not, you will be greatly affected by those who do.

Sarah Brady says the same thing about guns.

14 posted on 02/01/2002 10:20:41 AM PST by dead
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To: Exnihilo
Hi Exnihilo
Thanks for posting this
After all we've been through over the past four years
I think sticking with the Constitution is the best course for us
It is the Supreme Law of our Land
and it is filled with wisdom
I think its purpose is to protect our liberties
and the limits on government put in our Constitution
should be upheld in spirit and Law
Love, Palo
27 posted on 02/01/2002 10:34:36 AM PST by palo verde
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To: Exnihilo; Huck; Okiegolddust
In Defense of Liberty: Libertarianism and the Public Square I argue for ban on pornography or other messages offensive to the community standard on the public square, -- but not for censorship of books or film. My argument is based on individual rights and is therefore a libertarian argument, although it disagrees with today's prevalent libertarian thinking.

Bork fails to make an important distinction between solicited messages (solicited by buying a book or entering a movie theater), and unsolicited ones, that project from store windows, billboards or public acts. The externality argument of his is spurious. If I literally pollute the environment with a toxin, I am causing proximate harm, which under unjust pollution laws I may have a chance to externalize. If I sell pornography to a free moral agent who then commits a sex crime then the moral agent is causing the proximate harm and I didn't externalize anything. (That is leaving aside the argument that pornography serves as a useful and non-violence release for potential criminals). Only if the pornographic message is unsolicited does the moral equation change.

42 posted on 02/01/2002 10:53:20 AM PST by annalex
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To: Exnihilo
"If there is to be anything that can be called a community, rather than an agglomeration of hedonists, the case for previously unrecognized individual freedoms (as well as some that have been previously recognized) must be thought through and argued, and "rights" cannot win every time"

Oooh, I like this. Fits in with my minwage arguments. I gots to go Bork texaggie and general_re and badrotorooter and ....parsy.

46 posted on 02/01/2002 10:58:39 AM PST by parsifal
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To: Exnihilo
Bork does not use reason. He makes unsubstantiated claims and colorful appeals to emotion, just as the liberals do. Valid rights are right to life and the right to sovereignty of will. The right to life covers abortion. The right to sovereignty of will precludes anyone from interfering with an individuals decisions, as long as they don't coerce others, or otherwise interfere with property rights.

Bork holds and advocates the community can justify interference with the decisions of others on the following grounds, 1)the community has accepted his view of acceptable behavior, or 2)The community meets rule #1 and votes to acknowledge it, or votes to reject it and they are over ruled by one so wise as Lord Bork. Notice #2 is legislating from the bench if it is deemed necessary to institute a particular decree.

Bork is an authoritarian tyrant and that is the single reason so much effort went into keeping him from sitting at the USSC. If Bork's long winded claims, that allowing folks to make there own decisions had any basis in reality; Bork himself would be porn star from exposure during the vast amount of time he spent considering the subject matter of what he despises.

48 posted on 02/01/2002 11:00:06 AM PST by spunkets
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To: Exnihilo
Believe it or not, you are not even required to own a television.
66 posted on 02/01/2002 11:20:59 AM PST by JmyBryan
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To complaints about those products being on the market, libertarians respond with something like 'Just hit the remote control and change channels on your TV set.' But, like the person who chooses not to run a smelter while others do, you, your family, and your neighbors will be affected by the people who do not change the channel, who do rent the pornographic videos, who do read alt.sex.stories. As film critic Michael Medved put it: ' To say that if you don't like the popular culture, then turn it off, is like saying if you don't like the smog, stop breathing. . . .There are Amish kids in Pennsylvania who know about Madonna.' And their parents can do nothing about it

I see where he's coming from but I still disagree. There are only two ways to decide what 'rights' are; one is to allow the community to decide based on any number of subjective criteria and the other is to try to define them objectively. Letting the community decide is fine if you and your ideology are in the majority but its dangerous. I'm sure there are tens of thousands of militant homosexuals that believe your teaching your children to interpret the Bible literally has the "negative externality" of them getting bashed in back alleys. GOD forbid this view ever come to prominence or those of you who have already conceded that rights are based on the whim of the community (and thus have ceded the moral high ground) may find yourselves painted into a proverbial corner.

You might say this talk of objectivity is puffery, any system of rights will be subjective. But I say 'rights' are meaningless without at least a pretence of objectivity. If 'rights' are whatever the community subjectively determines them to be at any given time then 'rights' are merely 'permissions' which may be given or taken away at a whim. At least libertarians have tried to pin down what rights are, they say rights are X and then they are willing to defend that position. They've created a formula, call it the Non-Initiation of Force Principle or the Non-Aggression Axiom. You can plug a situation into one side of the formula and get a remarkably consistent answer out the other. Sometimes the formula isn't enough like in the abortion controversy which involves the meta-question of whether fetuses have rights in the first place. It's not perfect but its a very good foundation.

RE: explaining the right to pornography
The question is when a consenting adult takes naked pictures of herself and another consenting adult looks at those pictures who has been aggressed upon? Who's rights violated? No one's. And the only legitimate purpose of government is defending the rights of it's citizens. Its simply not the government's function to prevent consensual behavior.

And we don't just say "Just hit the remote control and change channels on your TV set." The fact is you can call the station and complain, boycott advertisers, throw your TV away or any of a nearly infinite list of actions EXCEPT use force to stop the broadcast you find offensive(and government IS force). Its persuasion vs. coercion; one is Kosher, the other not.

The funny thing is that by resorting to coercion you are tacitly admitting the poverty of your position or at least your impotence to persuade others to the rightness of your cause. Once again, inside the framework of consent why should people be forced to behave in ways which they cannot be freely persuaded?

68 posted on 02/01/2002 11:23:28 AM PST by ICU812
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To: Exnihilo
One problem with both liberals and libertarians is their notion that if something is allowed, it should be allowed almost everywhere and the right to universal access codified into law.

For thousands of years, mankind has done well setting aside certain areas for vice. In colonial Connecticut, iron workers consisted of extended families, families who had a reputation for vice. The state needed them but gave them their own town, outside of New Haven. Red light districts have always worked well. Laws were not usually passed allowing what went on within the districts, police simply ignored the laws on the books. In the case of the Combat Zone in Boston, it was the safest place to be in the city. Making people expend a little effort to indulge is not a bad thing. Besides, men like to crawl thru sewers to get sleaze.

76 posted on 02/01/2002 11:37:03 AM PST by LarryLied
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To: Exnihilo
This "analysis" is about what one would expect from someone who swallows the Sarah Brady line on the Second Amendment and who has sold his opinions of anti-trust issues to the highest bidder.

Again, taking the few sentences which show traces of something other than content-free bloviations:

libertarians all too often confuse the idea that markets should be free with the idea that everything should be available on the market

Nonsense. Libertarians expect things to be driven out of the market if consumers find them to be worthless -- remember the "bad truck" example from that communist critique you posted? Additionally, libertarian law, like most systems of laws, the sale of those goods and services which would be illegal (e.g. contract killings, to take an obvious example).

The externalities of depictions of violence and pornography are clear.

A first-year law student, much less a judge, should know that one is required to prove, not merely assert, a claim of fact upon which an argument rests.

But, like the person who chooses not to run a smelter while others do, you, your family, and your neighbors will be affected by the people who do not change the channel, who do rent the pornographic videos, who do read alt.sex.stories.

The pollution produced by a smelter is demonstrable as a matter of objective fact. To draw an analogy to something whose externalities are merely asserted without evidence is rather pathetic.

The obstacles to censorship of pornographic and viloence[sic]-filled materials are, of course, enormous.

Well, yes -- it happens to be illegal. Fortunately, the attitude that the law is simply an "obstacle" to overcome has been removed from the White House (for the time being) and was not seated on the Supreme Court.

108 posted on 02/01/2002 12:45:27 PM PST by steve-b
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To: Exnihilo
The second bit of advice --'If it offends you, don't buy it' -- is both lulling and destructive. Whether you buy it or not, you will be greatly affected by those who do. The aesthetic and moral environment in which you and your family live will be coarsened and degraded. Economists call the effects an activity has on others 'externalities'

Libertarians have real trouble understanding this concept

115 posted on 02/01/2002 1:11:48 PM PST by kidd
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To: Exnihilo
Bjork the Icelandic singer makes more sense than this Dork.
116 posted on 02/01/2002 1:15:51 PM PST by Greg Weston
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To: Exnihilo
>>Free market economists are particularly vulnerable to the libertarian virus.

It's hard to visualize what a free economy would look like self policed instead of big government) these days with our tax hungry Uncle Sam. The populace needs to grow up self-reliant and be street savy to scams.

My view is State & local governments can pass their anti-porno laws....or they can have a free-for-all.....it's up to them - but not the FEDS.

131 posted on 02/01/2002 4:35:27 PM PST by The Raven
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To: Exnihilo
We're not talking about a monolith here - some 'tarians are young - subject to the well-known "folies de jeunnesse." OTOH there are the others - who ought to know better - some of them maybe do but like the idea of their neurons blitzed by drugs, porn, degenerate sex. There's a good reason there's never been a 'tarian society - you can't have one unless the 'tarians are allowed to live as parasites living in a host society of decent and moral people. There's way too much selfishness in 'tarianism for them to ever have a society of their own. Not to worry - their aberrance is obvious enough and known by enough that voters deliver them miniscule totals.
153 posted on 02/01/2002 7:10:23 PM PST by 185JHP
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To: Exnihilo
Ah, yes --- good old Robert Bork -- a genuine statist who has managed to pull the wool over the eyes of conservatives almost completely.

He doesn't believe that the Second Amendment protects an individual RKBA, either.

179 posted on 02/03/2002 2:23:42 AM PST by Wonder Warthog
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