Posted on 02/01/2002 5:26:40 AM PST by CCWoody
All men are by nature the children of wrath, and are under the power of darkness. In this state men are not the subjects of Christ's kingdom and have no fitness for heaven. From this terrible state they are unable to deliver themselves. (I John 5:19; Romans 5:6) Out of this state they must be supernaturally called.(I Peter 2:9; Colossians 1:13) This divine "call" or work of grace is called in Scriptures as: REGENERATION (Titus 3:5); TRANSFORMATION (II Cor.3:18); THE NEW BIRTH, ILLUMINATION (II Cor. 4:6); SPIRITUAL RESURRECTION (John 5:24). This inward call is attended with justification and adoption and conversion,(which includes faith and repentance). (Romans 8:30; Eph. 1:5; Eph.2:1-10) Thus leading us to the EFFECTS OF REGENERATION.
Jesus in John 3:8 tells us of this matter, speaking of the blowing of the wind. Man is unable to originate, order or regulate the wind. Man knows very little of the cause which controls the wind, yet the presence of the wind is unmistakable; and its EFFECTS are plainly evidenced, "SO IS EVERY ONE THAT IS BORN OF THE SPIRIT." BUT THE TRANSFORMING RESULTS BECOME PLAIN.
The illumination of the understanding Gen. 1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." Then:" the earth was without form and void and darkness was upon the face of the deep." Next: "And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters," and God said: "Let there be light."
So it is when God begins to restore fallen man: "For God who commanded the light to shine out of the darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." (II Cor. 4:6)
This Divine illumination is not by dreams, visions, or mere feelings, but the revelation of things to his mind and soul which have been all along in sacred Scriptures. Now the blessed Holy Spirit removes the blindfold from his eyes and opens his heart to receive the written Word. (Acts 16:14) Then He begins to powerfully apply to the mind and conscience some portion of it. The result is that the one renewed is able to say, "One thing I know, that, whereas I was blind, now I see." (John 9:25)
To be more particular, The sinner is now enlightened in the knowledge of his own terrible condition. He may earlier have known many Bible facts, even doctrinal statements, received much instruction; BUT NOW, the solemn declarations of God's Word concerning his fallen state are brought home in piercing power to him. He no longer justifies himself by comparison with his fellow man, he measures himself by the law of God. He is now terribly convicted by his own uncleanness and wickedness before a thrice holy God. ( Isaiah 1:6; 64:6)
By this new spiritual light which God communicates in REGENERATION he now sees that the "wages" he has earned by sin deserve eternal death. That he has placed himself under the awful wrath of God. He now realizes that he has lived his whole life in utter independence of God, having no regard for His glory, what pleased and displeased a holy God. He is thus brought to cry out "WHAT MUST I DO TO BE SAVED?"
He now understands truly the awful malignity of sin, as being not only contrary to the whole law of God, but contrary to the true nature of God Himself. He is convinced of the absolute impossibility of contributing anything to obtain his own deliverance. He no longer has any confidence in himself; he has been brought to the end of himself. As Paul wrote "He is without Christ and without hope in this world." (Eph.2)
Thus his mouth is stopped and he confesses himself GUILTY BEFORE GOD, and justly liable to His awful vengeance, both because of the plague of his own heart and his numerous transgressions.
HE NOW SEES THE SUITABILITY OF CHRIST
By means of this illumination the renewed soul, under the Holy Spirit through the Word, now perceives (comprehends) how WELL SUITED Christ Jesus is to his poor wretched condition. The only hope he clings to is the prospect of obtaining deliverance from the "wrath to come" through the vicarious life and death of the Lord Jesus (i.e. Jesus Christ lived for and died right in the very place of a people). This keeps his soul from being overwhelmed with grief and from sinking into complete despondency because of the SIGHT of his sins.
As the Holy Spirit (through the Word) presents to him the infinite merits of Christ's obedience and righteousness, His tender compassion for repentant sinners, His great power to save, desires to share in that work now possess his heart. He is now resolved to look for salvation in no other. (person, working, or church) Under the gracious influences of the Holy Spirit, the soul is drawn by such words as these: "Come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." or "Him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out,"and he is led to apply to Him for pardon, cleansing, peace, righteousness, strength.
REPENTANCE
Other acts besides turning to Christ, such as REPENTANCE, which is a godly sorrow for sin, a hating of sin as sin, and an earnest desire to forsake and be completely delivered from its pollution. In the light of God, the renewed soul now perceives the utter vanity of the world, and the worthlessness of those former worthless toys and perishing trifles which the godless strive so hard to acquire. He has been awakened from the dream-sleep of death, and things are now seen in their true nature. Time is precious, not to be frittered away. God in His awesome Majesty is an object of godly fear and reverence. His holy law is accepted as just and good. All of these perceptions (new sight, or new way of seeing what the Word has stated) and actions are included in that holiness without which no man shall see the Lord. In some these actions are more vigorous than in others, and consequently, are more seen by the man himself. But the fruits of them are visible to others in external acts.
THE WILL FREED FROM BONDAGE
By nature,(the state into which all men are born), the will of man is free in only one direction: AWAY FROM GOD. Sin has enslaved the will, therefore, do we need to be "made free" (John 8:36). The two states are contrasted in Romans 6: "free from righteousness" v20 and "free from sin" v 18, when we have been made alive unto God. At the new birth the will is liberated from the "bondage of corruption" (Rom. 8:21 cf II Peter 2:19), and rendered conformable to the will of God (Psalm 119:97). In our unregenerate state the will was naturally rebellious, and its language was, "Who is the Lord that I should obey Him?" (Exodus 5:2) But the Father promised the Son, "Thy people shall BE WILLING in the day of thy power" (Ps.110:3), and this is accomplished when God "worketh in us both to will and to do of his good pleasure" (Phil 2:13; Heb.13:21)
"A new heart, a new spirit...I will take out your stony heart...and I will put my Spirit within you and cause you to walk in my statutes." (Heb.8:10; Ezek.36:26-27) The regenerated freely consent to and gladly choose to walk in subjection to Christ, being anxious now to obey Him in all things, even though imperfectly. His authority is his only rule, His love the constraining power: "If a man love me, he WILL KEEP my words." (John 14:23)
The will is so emancipated from the power of sin to be enabled to answer the Divine Command.
ELEVATION OF THE HEART
Rightly does the Lord claim first place as Creator, Owner, and Redeemer. "My son give Me thine heart" (Prov.23:26) expresses God's claim. They "first gave their own selves to the Lord" (II Cor.8:5) is the response of the regenerate. For before they were born anew, by natural birth they are "lovers of their own selves" and "lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God" (II Tim.3:2,4). When a sinner is renewed, his affections are taken off his idols and fixed on his Lord (I Thess. 1:9). Hence it is written "with the HEART man believeth unto righteousness" (Rom.10:10).And hence, also it is written, "If any man LOVE NOT the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed" (I Cor.16:22).
In Deut. 30:6 we read: "And the Lord God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to LOVE the Lord thy God WITH ALL THY HEART." This is the renewing of the heart, severing its love from all illicit objects. None can truly love God supremely till this miracle of grace has been worked in him. Then, and only then, is it that the affections are refined and directed to their proper objects, He who once was despised by the soul, is now the "altogether lovely" One. He who was hated (John 15:18) is now loved above all others. "Whom have I in heaven but Thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire besides Thee." is now their joyous confession.
The love of God is now become the governing principle of their life. (II Cor.5:13) What before was drudgery is now a delight. The approval of His Saviour is now his concern. Gratitude moves his will to glad obedience. Then his heart goes out to members of Christ's family, no matter their nationality, social position, or church connections: "We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren" (I John 3:14).
"A NEW HEART ALSO WILL I GIVE YOU..."
A CHANGE OF CONDUCT
A tree is known by its fruits. Faith is evidenced by works. The principle of holiness manifests itself in a godly walk. "If ye know that He is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of Him" (I John 2:29). The deep longing of every child of God is to please his heavenly Father in all things, and though this longing is never fully realized in this life-"NOT as though I had ALREADY attained, either were already perfect" (Phil.3:12)- nevertheless he continues "reaching forth unto those things which are before."
A change will take place in the conduct of the most oral unconverted man as soon as he is born from above. Not only will he be far less eager in his pursuit of the world, more careful in his selections of companions, but he now realizes that the holy eye of God is ever upon him, marking not only his actions, but weighing his motives. He now bears the sacred name of Christ, and his deepest concern is to be kept from everything which would bring a reproach upon it. His aim is to let his light so shine before men that they may see his good works and glorify his Father which is in heaven. That which gives him concern and distress is not the sneers and taunts of the ungodly, but that he fails to measure up to the standard God has set before him, and that conformity to it after which he so yearns. BUT ought not the Christian to "grow in grace"? Yes, indeed. Yet it must be emphatically said that growing in grace most certainly does not mean an increasing satisfaction with myself. No, it is the very opposite. The more I walk in the light of God, the more plainly I see the vileness within me. The only relief from this distressing discovery and the only peace for the renewed heart is to look away from self to Christ and His perfect work for us. Faith empties of all self-complacency and gives an exalted estimate of God in Christ.
OCCUPIED WITH CHRIST
A growth in grace is defined, in great part, by the words that immediately follow: "...and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ (II Peter 3:18). It is the GROWING realization of the perfect suitability of Christ to a poor sinner, the deepening conviction of His fitness to be the Saviour of such a vile wretch as the Spirit shows me I am. It is the apprehension of how much I need His precious blood to cleans me, His righteousness to clothe me, His arm to support me, His advocacy to answer me on high, His grace to deliver me from all my enemies, both inward and outward.
The more the heart is occupied with Christ, the more the mind is stayed on Him by trusting in Him (just camped right there, JCS) (Isaiah 26:3), the more will faith, hope, love, patience, meekness, and all spiritual graces be strengthened and drawn forth into exercise and action to the glory of God. The MANIFESTATION of growth in grace and in the knowledge of Christ is another thing. The actual process of growing is not perceptible either in the natural or in the spiritual sphere; but the results of it are, mainly so to others. The chief EVIDENCES of spiritual growth in the Christian are a deepening hatred of sin and a higher value put on spiritual things, a yearning after them, and a fuller recognition of our deep need and dependency on God to supply it.
"The Lord will give grace and glory: no good thing will He withhold from them that walk uprightly" (Ps.84:11). Grace and glory are not to be separated. Grace is glory begun. Glory is grace elevated to its perfection in the eternal state. In I John 3:2, we are told that we shall be like Him, reason? "WE SHALL SEE HIM AS HE IS." The immediate vision of the Lord of glory will be a transforming one, the bright reflections of God's purity and holiness cast upon the glorified will make them perfectly holy and blessed. BUT there is to be a resemblance of that here in the lives of His people. And too comes from BEHOLDING HIM. (II Cor.3:18)
"But we all...beholding...the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord."
(Excerpts from A.W. Pink on Regeneration and the new birth)
Still no mention of a conversion experience!?!
1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Paul wishes (after the example of Moses) that he could sacrifice his own salvation if it would save his kindred Israelites. See commentary on verse 22.
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
This is clarified in verse 8. Righteous Israel is not the same as the literal descendants of Israel.
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
The chosen people Israel are not all of the children of Abraham, but those who are also children of Isaac (and Jacob, whom the Lord named Israel.)
It is too bad that the original epistle is no longer extant, because there is an evident copying/transposition error here. Certainly it should read, "Neither, because they are the children of Abraham, are they all [the chosen] seed: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called."
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
The chosen people of God are defined as the righteous, who inherit the promises made to Israel, who are adopted in if not born into the House of Israel. The chosen people are not the literal descendants of Israel irrespective of their righteousness.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Salvation comes, not because we will it to happen, nor because we compete for it in a footrace and win a prize, but because God provides the atoning blood of Christ when we repent and obey the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
The Greek here means "... whom he will he leaves to [his own] stubbornness [or hardness]."
The Lord looks into the heart and has mercy on those whose repentance is genuine and whose hearts are contrite. Those who will not repent He must leave to their stubbornness.
Here I reproduce excerpts from eastsider's posts #51 and #75 on Predestination Thread III.
from eastsider #51:
There is still an important linguistic fact that has not yet been mentioned, which IMO is the key to solving the riddle, and that is the meaning of the expression God hardens the heart.
The expression God hardens the heart in the Greek New Testament is borrowed from the Hebrew Old Testament. Hebrew has a verbal modality of causation called the hiphil that the expression God hardens the heart does not employ. One way to approximate the non-causative meaning of the expression God hardened the heart of Pharaoh, for example, is by analogy to the English expression so-and-so made me angry. We know that so-and-so was not literally the source of my anger; I was. Similarly, God was not literally the source of Pharaoh’s hard heart; Pharaoh was.
Similarly God is not literally the source of the Reprobates’ hard hearts; they are.
eastsider #75:
I am merely exploring the theological concept that some men are damned from eternity, trying to understand Uriel's reasoning from Scripture. ... To me, the cardinal premise of the scriptural proofs is the distinction between the Elect and the Reprobate. This premise strikes me as somewhat odd, considering that I cannot find the term "the Reprobate" in my Bible.
As I see it, "the Reprobate" do not exist. They’re nothing but the chimerical spawn of a faulty premise; viz., that the expression God hardens the heart stands for the proposition that God withholds from some men’s wills the grace to answer his call to repentance. This premise is simply not supported linguistically. Ask any Rabbi with a Hebrew text to look at Ex 4:21 and tell you if the verb "will harden" contains the hiphil. It doesn’t. Have him check every last reference in the Old Testament to the expression God hardens the heart to see if just one of them contains the hiphil. None does.
The expression God hardens the heart does stand for the proposition that each man is personally responsible for his own response to God’s call to repentance, which, in order to be true, necessarily presumes that each man is in fact able to respond to God’s call.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Paul is talking to people who have fallen into sin and do not acknowledge it, perhaps some of the grievous sins in Romans 1, who say, "Why does God continue to find fault with us? Who among us was disobedient, resisting His will?"
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Paul challenges their protest, reasserting the Creator/created relationship, and says they do not have the understanding necessary to criticize their Creator. They are disobedient and in need of repentance.
(Now if, as the Calvinists say, God created them as totally-depraved vessels of wrath, they would have had enough understanding, and just cause, to protest the way they were created, and to insist that they be recreated as vessels of mercy! They had not done anything, before they were created, to deserve being created as vessels of wrath! Fortunately, God does not have the imperfections the Calvinists ascribe to Him.)
Of course, it would be perfectly acceptable for the righteous to ask, "Why hast thou made me thus?" The Psalmist answers (forgive me for quoting so much, I love this psalm):
7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. (Psalms 139:7-14, emphasis mine)
Paul makes reference to the classic "clay in the hands of the potter" allegory found in Jeremiah 18, familiar to his listeners. If he had intended another allegory, he would have had to give it in full. The brief reference shows that Jeremiah 18 was intended.
Today if a speaker makes reference to the Parable of the Prodigal Son, and you do not know what that is, you can ask almost any church member and they can find it for you, in Luke 15. Similarly for the Parable of the Wheat and the Tares (Matthew 13), or the Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16).
In Paul's day: Ten Commandments? Exodus 20. The Lord is my Shepherd? Psalm 23. Clay in the hands of the potter? Jeremiah 18.
2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.The main point here that refutes the Calvinist interpretation of Romans 9:21 is that the allegory tells of soft clay, on the wheel, in the potter's hands, and so does Paul. This is not about hardened vessels whose fate is sealed.
3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them. (Jeremiah 18:2-10)
The vessel becomes marred (Paul's phrase is "unto dishonor") in the potter's hands because of the wickedness of the nation it represents. If the nation does not repent, the potter destroys the marred vessel (nation) by forming the clay back into a lump, then makes of the same lump (Paul's phrase) another vessel (nation).
If the nation repents, then in this allegory the vessel will no longer be marred as the potter shapes it on the wheel. If a righteous nation turns to evil, they lose the promised blessing.
Paul here is likening this allegory to individuals, exhorting them to repentance so they will not be marred vessels on the potter's wheel, so they will not be destroyed by the potter because of their iniquity. He knows that all have the capacity and the ability to repent.
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Why would Paul, in Romans 9:18-22, be talking about God creating people solely for the purpose of thrusting them down to hell, solely for His good pleasure, blaming everything on them, as the Calvinists say? The answer is, he isn't.
Paul just finished a few verses earlier, in Romans 9:2-4, laying his own salvation on the altar if only it would help his fellow Israelites, many of whom may have assented to the most depraved act in history, the crucifixion of the God of heaven and earth!
Paul makes reference in verse 3 to the conversation Moses had with the LORD after he came down from the Mount with the two tables of testimony and found the Israelites worshipping a golden calf.
Notice that Moses offers to sacrifice his own salvation for them, a supreme act of love, but the LORD leaves the responsibility where it belongs:
31 And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.It is contrary to the justice of God for Him to create vessels of wrath. They must become vessels of wrath as a result of their own choosing, or God could not, in justice, thrust them down to hell. Notice that Paul does not say who filled the vessels with wrath, or who fitted them to destruction.
32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. (Exodus 32:31-33)
How does God show His wrath, or His power, by "enduring with much longsuffering?" The verse would make more sense if it were written thus:
What if God, willing to shew his loving-kindness, and to make his patience known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:Was there a copying error, as the Scriptures were copied and recopied over the centuries? Too bad that the original epistle, from the hand of Paul himself, or his scribe, is no longer extant.
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
We are foreordained unto glory, because of His loving-kindness, and the promises of glory are contingent, as always, upon the righteousness of the recipient.
In summary, Romans 9 does not provide any support for the Calvinist position at all, whether taken as a whole or verse by verse.
That's silly. The Word of God does not forbid you from reading more of the Word of God.
But if you are not going to read any post from me that quotes from the LDS Scriptures, you cannot benefit. Obviously, only those that read them can benefit.
Should I then reply to you, or to "All"? Why do you continue to post to me?
Well, please clarify what it is that you are trying to get clarified.
Is this a "secret" doctrine or something?
No, it is just that you keep asking about everyone having their own planets, and don't I want one, kind of like Saint-Exupery's "The Little Prince", where the main character has his own asteroid.
That is not a doctrine of the Church, although you keep insisting that it is. You can't find anything in the Scriptures about "getting your own planet".
And it is irreverent to ask about Jesus Christ getting His own planet. He made the worlds, as I quoted from Hebrews 1:2, and I can quote other things too, but that will keep l$mp from reading this post, poor guy.
So please clarify what you are getting at, unless you are just trying to prove me wrong, in which case don't bother.
I know of none. Is this supposed to have something to do with the Book of Mormon? The word "circumcision" occurs only once therein:
Moroni 8:8
8 Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me.
That was about 400 AD, in an epistle of the prophet Mormon to his son Moroni.
Don't act so innocent --It has to do with it if your religion contends that the Mississippi mound builders were Jewish. Interestingly enough Michael Hammer from the university of Arizona is hot on the trail of Jewish genetic research and soon it will be determined where the North American indigenous people originated. Then it will be time to re-write some more prophecies and theology, won't it? It's a pretty safe bet though, no formal rite of circumcision, no Jewish civilization. End of story.
Would you like me to tell you about my LDS conversion experience, three decades ago?
I sensed something about my LDS friends. They had something I didn't, and I wanted to know what it was. (It turned out to be the gift of the Holy Ghost.)
I studied the Doctrine and Covenants (later the Book of Mormon), compared it to the Bible, prayed about it, went to Church, lived the light I had, and received a witness of the Holy Spirit over the next few weeks, which distilled upon my soul as the dews from heaven, that all three were the Word of God, that there were true and living apostles and prophets upon the earth today, and that Jesus Christ was personally directing the affairs of His Church and Kingdom through His servants, in preparation for His Second Coming.
He is not an absent abstraction, letting the world spin off by itself toward whatever fate awaits it, but a Living Reality in each of our lives. He will come quickly!
The veracity of the Book of Mormon does not depend upon the latest scientific findings. When all is said and done, everyone will know that true religion and true science are in perfect harmony. Anyway, the law of circumcision was done away in Christ, see that verse I just quoted to you.
Your #647: The true Word of God forbids us from reading spurious works purporting to be the true Word
Chapter and verse please. These are not spurious works and they do not purport to be, they are the Word of God. So you need not be concerned about reading them.
Heck, I'd settle for an independant academic committee...
The silence is deafening....
Until you can say this, you are not converted. It's probably the experience your prophet knew existed, and hungered for so deeply, that it caused him to say that he saw a little god of flesh and blood, do you think? Ever have a little kid tell you he saw the Easter Bunny? Maybe it was Michael!
Nothing like it. When I die, I will have my God, my Radiant Morning Star, to worship for inscribing me into His hands and for His visage being marred more than any other man; and I will have a saint to thank for showing me what was lacking in the afflictions of Christ in her suffering.
When I die, I will have the only thing I desire.
Why would you trust it then? Wouldn't you find some other reason to question its veracity?
I had this discussion with xzins. See For Whom Did Christ Die? #1752 and #1759.
The silence is deafening....
What silence?
That's wonderful! Thanks to Woody for posting that! May we all live as we should, that we may be reunited with Him at the end of our days!
(I just wish Woody would square that with the way he treats those who disagree with him. There is a disconnect there.)
That was so predictable. You only wanted my experience so you could claim it isn't good enough. No matter what I said, you would say that. Joseph Smith met the Lord Jesus, and God the Father also, and yet you deny that and try to debunk it, unsuccessfully, in the rest of your post.
Plus, it is clear that you are not paying any attention to what I post except for the parts with which you try to attack me. You and I just don't make any progress from day to day. It is like talking to the air.
Who said I haven't met Him? Would I share such a sacred thing in public, in view of your behavior? If that would not be casting your pearls before swine, what would be?
Your #651 is nothing but insults. You are probably thinking of Revelation 22:18-19, or 2 Corinthians 11:4, or Galatians 1:6, which I have discussed at length with people who pay more attention to what I am posting.
As I said to Woody, you guys make false claims to a false superiority, and then, lifted up in pride, you show the world how a supposedly regenerate person should definitely not treat a supposedly unregenerate person. Consider the situations reversed, for I am regenerate and you are not behaving as one who has been born again. You justify yourselves in taking the low road with those who disagree with you, which is why it is a false superiority you claim.
You guys need to get your act together, and shape up.
True it is, as I said before, I have no basis on which to conduct a rational conversation with you. Reason and logic and rational thinking you have left at the bottom of a lake somewhere.
Please put your brain in gear, and leave out the insults and attacks, when you post to me next time, or I shall just refer you to this post.
Thanks! Some day these guys will learn what free will really is -- and recognize it as the free will they use every day. God bless you too!
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