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Facing The Truth About Homosexual Behavior
Traditional Values Coalition ^ | January 29, 2002 | Rev. Louis P. Sheldon

Posted on 01/29/2002 5:13:49 AM PST by simicyber

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To: helmsman
Aw c'mon!
181 posted on 01/29/2002 9:43:36 AM PST by Savage Beast
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To: JakeWyld
Why don't you confine yourself to points I raised rather than try and saddle me with positions I do not raise?
182 posted on 01/29/2002 9:44:10 AM PST by justshutupandtakeit
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To: OWK
Are you suggesting that I have some kind of inside advantage?

It's not fair for you to insist on thinking things through logically instead of just giving the usual human, knee-jerk, emotional response.

Almost everyone else here does; what's your problem? ;-)

183 posted on 01/29/2002 9:45:33 AM PST by CubicleGuy
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To: OWK
If you think I look silly, considering the source, I'll take that as a complement. You used to frankly admit objectivism but not any more.

OK, let's take what you do confess. The mantra about non-initiation of force sounds very nice in college bull sessions. With each passing year, it becomes ever more obvious that libertarianism does not lead to a society where we all sit around smoking good weed and getting laid as often as we might like (with the help of a consenting other) but rather to a society where some people actually resent charity (not welfare, mind you, but charity) or altrusim.

If I choose to be charitable or altruistic for no better reason in the imagination of the libertarian than that I feel a religious compulsion to give to others though they have not earned that charity, I should be free to do so. No???? After all, it is my money or whatever. I have earned it. Ownership of what I earn gives me the right to dispose of it. If I don't compel you ar anyone else to join me in giving, that is my libertarian right. If you disapprove of what I choose to do with my property, that is your right so long as you do not initiate force against me. If I despise homosexuality, promiscuity, or whatever, that is also my business. I have no desire to jail homosexuals or fine them or legally sanction them in any way. Nor adulterers.

With abortion, the rubber meets the road because we are talking about a different human being's rights. I have no desire to debate abortion here nor the time since I have obligations to attend to off the internet.

When I was captivated by libertarian works as a student, I found interesting the concept of shunning or neighborhood disapproval to be an interesting alternative to government action. We have passed that point when homosexual activists seek the right not to be criticized or shunned and that has nothing to do with taxes or benefits. In Canada, there are laws threatening jail to those who engage in "homophobic" "hate speech." Some politicians have threatened to try and have JP II jailed if he speaks out against homosexuality while visiting Canada. Not terribly likely to happen but not because of a lack of law.

Libertarians are a fifth column who undermine conservatism. They have every right to try and conservatives have every right to resist their efforts. At least you are honest enough to admit that you are not conservative.

184 posted on 01/29/2002 9:46:21 AM PST by BlackElk
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To: Wm Bach
Hmmmm.... A population brake? Interesting.
185 posted on 01/29/2002 9:46:56 AM PST by BikerNYC
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To: OWK
You have offered nothing. As long as those laws stay on the books, freedom and liberty are not anything but unrealitic ideals. Try a reality check.
186 posted on 01/29/2002 9:47:48 AM PST by John Doe
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To: OWK
Of course, you cannot address the point preferring to try and saddle me with positions I haven't advocated.

Karl Marx breathed oxygen, OWK breathes oxygen therefore OWK is a Marxist.

Such a logician. One can tell you avoided schools at every opportunity.

187 posted on 01/29/2002 9:48:38 AM PST by justshutupandtakeit
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To: Dukie
agrue argue
188 posted on 01/29/2002 9:48:43 AM PST by Dukie
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To: justshutupandtakeit
I raised the issue of public schools, as you did. I addressed your comments as I read them and expounded on what I saw as the theme of your post. It is unfortunate that you cannot allow for debate rather than attempting to make everything go your way.
189 posted on 01/29/2002 9:51:48 AM PST by JakeWyld
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To: BlackElk;OWK
I would like you to make an honest revelation as to the totality of your belief structure so that your fellow posters may see it all.

OWK, I knew you wouldn't come clean. Don't let him fool ya BlackElk, he definitely likes cheese.

190 posted on 01/29/2002 9:54:36 AM PST by Joe Driscoll
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To: Savage Beast
Aw c'mon!

Ok, for the entertainment of you, and for that of the many.

The original quote:
...something in the human psyche gets triggered to convince the poor soul to run around chasing after rumps instead of nice loamy woman thighs.

Or, the poor soul could simply chase after the woman's loamy rump. Ha!

Send all complaints, curses, flames, and phone numbers (if you're female) to: helmsman@laughshisassoff.org

hehehe...

191 posted on 01/29/2002 9:56:22 AM PST by helmsman
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To: BlackElk
With each passing year, it becomes ever more obvious that libertarianism does not lead to a society where we all sit around smoking good weed and getting laid as often as we might like...

If you see that as being the ultimate goal of libertarianism, then you appear, to me, to be one very confused (or maybe just ignorant) individual.

Fortunately, neither state needs to be a permanent condition.

192 posted on 01/29/2002 9:56:25 AM PST by CubicleGuy
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To: OWK
You are correct from a legal standpoint.

However, homosexuality has become an issue because homosexuals are not content to practice their abberations in private. They parade them in the street, they demand the right to marry, to adopt children, in short, to have their abnormal sexual practices condoned and approved by normal society at large.

As a biological organism, the primary function of a human being's biological equipment is to reproduce the species. You can't get offspring from two males or two females, hence homosexuality is a biological dead-end, a genetic or social abberration which could lead to the extinction of the species.

Homosexuality is not normal and is the product of defective genes or the societal programming of a normal individual by abberrant role models.

If homsexuals REALLY wanted to be free of any discrimination, they would crawl back into the closet where they belong.

193 posted on 01/29/2002 9:57:52 AM PST by ZULU
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To: OWK
You happily accept their wrongful existence as an excuse to commit further wrongs. At least be honest with yourself.

I always fight for vouchers and promote homeschooling. I have no use for public schools. The agenda they push sickens me. But that's OK, you go assume what you like, you always do.

194 posted on 01/29/2002 9:58:29 AM PST by Always Right
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To: Happygal
Well thanks, Happy. (I had to go back and read what I said.) I thought I'd probably get flamed for that (not that I care), but it's what I was thinking, and, strangely, nobody seems to have disagreed. There is certainly a lot of interterest in this particular subject here.
195 posted on 01/29/2002 9:58:36 AM PST by Savage Beast
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To: Virginia-American
Private schools barely pay a living wage particularly if one is raising a family. I don't know about Virginia but in Illinois you might start at 25-30000 in a private school but can earn over $70,000 in public schools. Now if you are willing to work for so little be my guest though I note you would be relying upon retirement income to offset the loss of salary. Your other comments are just hyperbole without substance.

As I stated it is very difficult to find enough competent math or science teachers even in the public schools with decent salaries. Halve the salaries and watch the quality of teaching decline precipitously. There are expected to be tremendous shortages in all subjects within the next few years.

There are many ways to improve the public school system without destroying it. It is the sheerest fantasy to believe it can be replaced with private schooling. Sounds good, like all pie-in-the-sky schemes but collapses in the face of serious analysis.

Does it seem odd that the same people who vote in the politicians we all love to hate would be the same ones making choices about private schooling yet, better choices are expected? That is a laughable idea if ever there was one.

196 posted on 01/29/2002 10:00:35 AM PST by justshutupandtakeit
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To: helmsman
Promiscuous heterosexuality is, by far, the greatest threat to marriage and the family, not gayety.

Amen.

I have been saying that for years to anyone who will listen, and the number is quite small. I ask people who rail on this subject why it is that they never include promiscuity as a problem. Most times they never answer at all, the rest mumble something like "OH yeah, thats bad too" and then return to their crusade against certain sins.

197 posted on 01/29/2002 10:02:50 AM PST by Protagoras
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To: ag2000jon
for later reading
198 posted on 01/29/2002 10:05:56 AM PST by ag2000jon
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To: OWK; Khepera
Homosexuality (abnormal though it may be), does not violate the rights of anyone, provided it is practiced privately among consenting adults.

If homosexuality were practiced privately among consenting adults then we wouldn't have an activist movement, would we?

The fact that we are discussing the issue means that it is not a private matter between consenting adults. Therefore, since those suffering from Same-sex Attraction Disorder (SAD) have brought the issue into the public arena, then we have the obligation, not the opportunity, to remind everyone that it is not a normal or desirable trait and belongs back in the closet.

Shalom.

199 posted on 01/29/2002 10:06:18 AM PST by ArGee
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To: BlackElk
OK, let's take what you do confess.

Confess? I don't confess it. I state it openly, and with pride and emphasis. I hold the inalienable rights of individuals human beings as the highest political ideal.

The mantra about non-initiation of force sounds very nice in college bull sessions.

Maybe you gave up the idea of inalienable rights when you left college, but I can assure you, I still hold it very tightly, at the core of my philosophy. (and for the record, I did not attend college)

With each passing year, it becomes ever more obvious that libertarianism does not lead to a society where we all sit around smoking good weed and getting laid as often as we might like (with the help of a consenting other) but rather to a society where some people actually resent charity (not welfare, mind you, but charity) or altrusim.

Tell me oh enlightened one, how precisely does this "become ever more obvious with each passing year"? You seem think that your tendency for making grand unsubstantiated pronouncements is somehow a substitute for rational discourse. Simply declaring absurdities in the absence of support may make you feel good, but it does nothing to advance your position.

If I choose to be charitable or altruistic for no better reason in the imagination of the libertarian than that I feel a religious compulsion to give to others though they have not earned that charity, I should be free to do so. No????

Absolutely. I myself make charitable contributions all the time. But I do so because I value the actions of the charity, greater than I value the money. There's not a thing wrong with that. What I oppose, is government seizing my property at gunpoint, for redistribution to individuals who have not earned it. Can you understand the difference?

After all, it is my money or whatever. I have earned it. Ownership of what I earn gives me the right to dispose of it.

Of course it does. Why on earth would you think otherwise? (once again I fear you have fallen into the trap of believing your own mischaracterizations of my position, rather than simply asking me what I believe).

If I don't compel you ar anyone else to join me in giving, that is my libertarian right. If you disapprove of what I choose to do with my property, that is your right so long as you do not initiate force against me.

Absolutely so. I have never even hinted otherwise.

If I despise homosexuality, promiscuity, or whatever, that is also my business. I have no desire to jail homosexuals or fine them or legally sanction them in any way. Nor adulterers.

I agree completely (and have stated so emphatically many times already on this thread).

With abortion, the rubber meets the road because we are talking about a different human being's rights. I have no desire to debate abortion here nor the time since I have obligations to attend to off the internet.

You'll find no debate from me. I stand 100% and vehemently in the pro-life corner, and favor the protection of the lives of unborn children by law.

When I was captivated by libertarian works as a student, I found interesting the concept of shunning or neighborhood disapproval to be an interesting alternative to government action.

The fact that you describe your early political explorations as "captivating" and "youthful fancies" is quite a window into your psyche.

We have passed that point when homosexual activists seek the right not to be criticized or shunned and that has nothing to do with taxes or benefits. In Canada, there are laws threatening jail to those who engage in "homophobic" "hate speech." Some politicians have threatened to try and have JP II jailed if he speaks out against homosexuality while visiting Canada. Not terribly likely to happen but not because of a lack of law.

Hate crimes laws, are ridiculous on their face. In fact, anti-discrimination laws, affirmative action laws, laws seeking to force unwanted associations on men, are all ridiculous affronts to the concept of inalienable human rights. I have already said so a dozen times on this thread (which you would know had you bothered to read it, instead of creating fictional mischaracterizations of my position).

Libertarians are a fifth column who undermine conservatism.

Libertarians are advocates of inalienable rights, who oppose primarily the political left, but also the political right if they happen to be the ones subjugating rights on that particular issue.

They have every right to try and conservatives have every right to resist their efforts. At least you are honest enough to admit that you are not conservative.

I have never pretended otherwise. That was a product of your fevered imagination (as are most of the things you have said).

200 posted on 01/29/2002 10:09:36 AM PST by OWK
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