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To: Ol' Sparky
It simply boggles the mind that you have a high school diploma, let alone graduated from a "top 25 technical university."

Yes, as is abundantly apparent from your performance on this thread, it takes very little to "boggle" your mind.

Hurricanes do NOT prove the earth is become more orderly or that the earth is decreasing in entropy.

No one said they did, Sparky. Where do you get this stuff from? Are you channeling one of "medved's" psychic animals?

The Second Law applies to the earth, you educated IDIOT. [emphasis added to highlight Sparky's juvenile methodology of argumentation and bad manners]

Once more, Sparky: NO ONE said processes on the Earth were exempt from the 2LoT. THe 2LoT applies to all thermodynamic systems when viewed in the context of the surroundings with which they interact. Did a pink elephant suggest to you otherwise?

The Second Law was established through observation on this earth and the primary application of the Second Law is on living things that use energy.

Well, your half right; it is based on observation (that's the definition of a scientific Law; they are generalizations based on empirical evidence), but the 2LoT applies to a great deal MORE than just "living things that use energy." If it were intended soley for application to tho what you suggest, it would be called the "Second Law of Biology" or something of that nature. But, in fact, the 2LoT applies to thermodynamic processes, regardless of whether or not thay are alive.

"There is a general natural tendency of all observed systems to go from order to disorder, reflecting dissipation of energy available for future transformation—the law of increasing entropy." R. B. Lindsay: "Physics—To What Extent Is It Deterministic?" American Scientist, Vol. 56, Summer 1968, p. 100.

And your point is? Lindsay is merely recapitulating the 2LoT in layman's terms. No disagreement from me.

Observed systems would include life on the planet.

Ah, but Sparky, "life on the planet" is NOT a single thermodynamic system! It is bazillions of independent thermodynamic processes going on similtaneously, each one, in the context of the surroundings with which it interacts, obeying the 2LoT. Just because you want to lump the processes together doesn't mean they are part of a single thermodynamic process.

Henry Morris: ALL observed systems include life oRemember this tendency from order to disorder applies to all real processes. Real processes include, of course, biological and geological processes, as well as chemical and physical processes. The interesting question is: "How does a real biological process, which goes from order to disorder, result in evolution. which goes from disorder to order?"

IS your memory as defective as your reasoning ability? I already answered that question in reply #379 thusly:

To which the likely answer is: by localizing the entropy decrease of the biological organism at the expense of the net total entropy of the system and its surroundings. You do remember stipulating in your own words, in a previous reply, that it is possible for spontaneous localized entropy to decrease, at the expense of the total entropy of the system and its surroundings, don't you? Biological systems "organize" at the expense of a little more thermodynamic disorganization of their surroundings. As long as the disorganization of the surroundings (entropy increase) is greater than the increase in organization of the organism (decrease in local entropy), net entropy of the system and its surroundings is increasing, all in accordance with your beloved 2LoT.

456 posted on 02/03/2002 7:54:17 AM PST by longshadow
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To: longshadow
That is utterly absurd. For living things to be exempt from the Second Law, you've have to rewrite the Second Law. The Second Law's MAIN application is toward living things that use energy. The idea that living things are becoming more orderly and the rest of the earth more disorderly is absolutely brainless. You ought to ask you university for REFUND of your thermodynamics class.

And, you know what, Lord Kelvin, CREATIONIST AND AUTHOR THE SECOND LAW, would laugh in your face as well as the fraudulent pseudo-scientists that have advanced evolution. There is less evidence for Darwin's ideas today than there was when came up with the theory. The fossil record is so barren that Stephen J. Gould pretty much distances himself from Darwin.

A little info on the author of Second Law, a man who lived in the same era as Darwin, Lord Kelvin:

Lord Kelvin's Second Law

The Absolute Temperature Scale still bears Lord Kelvin's name, but other exploits in his day, like the submarine cable, revolutionary ship's compass and 69 other patented brainwaves, made him a household word. He died in 1907 with over 600 published scientific papers to his credit, 70 patented inventions and 21 honorary degrees. Elected unanimously at 22 as Glasgow University's youngest professor ever, he opened every lecture with prayer. "A firm believer in creation for his entire life he often insisted that the power to analyze, to look for causes, was itself a creation of God. He never ceased to look for causes, causes of causes, and for causes of these in return. Seeking a cause for the escape of heat from the Earth, he became in the end a founder of geophysics and the joint discoverer of the Second Law of Thermodynamics." He was 35 in 1859, when Darwin published his "Origin of the Species."

Could he have dreamed then that the Law he helped co-discover would today be one of the biggest headaches to Darwin's theory? "The sheer venturesomeness of Kelvin's speculations were possible only because of his underlying certainty that behind everything lay the power of the Creator God. Science, in his view, could never lead a man to disbelieve in God." Kelvin wouldn't buy today's notion that creation is somehow "unscientific." When his sister in later years read to him Darwin's early statement of "disbelief in Divine revelation and evidence of creative design in the Universe," Kelvin, "unhesitatingly denounced it as utterly unscientific."

Darwin apparently published his theory with much apprehension, fearing the scorn of fellow scientists; in the first edition of his "Origin," he prepared a line retreat along Lamark's ideas in case his theory of natural selection was found indefensible (Life & Letters of Charles Darwin - Ed. Francis Darwin, D. Appleton & Company, 1888, vol. 2, pp. 12-15). Professor C. D. Darlington was of the opinion that Darwinism began "as a theory that could be explained by natural selection; it ended as a theory that evolution could be explained just as you would like it to be explained" (Darlington: "The Origin of Darwinism," Scientific American, 200, 5:60; May 1959, pp. 60-61).

459 posted on 02/03/2002 8:36:16 AM PST by Ol' Sparky
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