Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

To: White Mountain
I am afraid you are mistaken. They had not seen the miracles to that point, but they were still alive at the time. You have not seen the miracles, and yet you have repented (of some things, surely, giving you the benefit of the doubt 8-). You don't know how God was working in their lives. It was not the Savior's purpose to tell you. He was making a different point, and was not revealing His plan for them.

Sodom's damnation to Hell is revealed (Jude 6-7), and is also treated upon in Matthew 11 as a city which God foreknew as Repenting if He chose to display miracles therein (but He did not choose to bring this to pass); hence, without the Mormon dogma of an "escape-clause Hell", you still have inescapable Absolute Reprobation in the Matthew 11 passage.

Besides, miracles and saving faith are different things. How many people have come to Christ through His personal ministry and miracles? How many more people, overwhelmingly more, have come to Christ, been regenerated, whatever, in other ways? You cannot assume that no regenerations occurred in Tyre and Sidon.

I think it is fair to assume that no regenerations (or less than ten, anyway, per Genesis 18) occurred in Sodom; and yet God foreknew that wicked city as Repenting if He willed to demontrate therein miracles the equal of those shown Capernaum. But God willed not to save Sodom, but rather to damn her.

And so again, without the Mormon dogma of an "escape-clause Hell", you still Have inescapable Absolute Reprobation in the Matthew 11 passage.

You do acknowledge that we have a different view (because we believe more of the Bible 8o), and that it is conclusive regarding your argument, but I don't need that here. By the way, I could say more about Jude 6-7 in this context, perhaps later.

Sure. If one adopts the Mormon heresies of "second chances after death" and an "escape-clause Hell", then you have no logical obligation to admit Absolute Reprobation in Matthew 11. (I have always acknowledged that Mormon heresy on Hell allows them to avail themselves of this logical "escape hatch").

But if Sodom is burning in hell even now, and will never, ever leave Hell, then you have inescapable Absolute Reprobation in Matthew 11.

Ergo, Mormons can evade absolute predestination in Matthew 11, but Christians cannot.

942 posted on 01/24/2002 8:41:39 AM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 941 | View Replies ]


To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
Your #942:

Jesus said that Sodom would have remained until that day, meaning that there would have been more than ten righteous instead of less. The wicked would still have gone to hell.

Jude tells us that the people of Sodom and Gomorrah and nearby cities were damned because they persisted in sexual sin, not because miracles were not shown them or because God withheld the grace to repent.

Strictly speaking, you can't tie the two passages together the way you want to.

John in Revelation also tells us that we will be judged according to our works. This is the important lesson to draw from the Bible: not that God ensures that most will burn in hell, but that we must suffer for our own sins if we do not repent.

Remember also that the repentance of a city in sackcloth and ashes still does not tell you the final outcome of the individuals. The dog can and does return to his vomit, and the sow to her wallowing in the mire.

If you are really suggesting that if Sodom had seen the miracles, regeneration would automatically have been extended to all and the entire city would have been forever righteous, then God would be unjust not to show us all these miracles, and regenerate us all, even those in Capernaum, Chorazin, and Bethsaida! Surely God can do it! Calvinism plus a Just God always seems to lead to Universalism, and Calvinism without a Just God leads to, well, Calvinism.

No, there is another lesson to be learned from the hardness of heart in Capernaum. The fact is that we are here to learn to choose the right, and there are those who will choose to harden their hearts against the Greater Light, even the Savior's ministry and miracles. Those people cannot live with the righteous hereafter.

Are not all unregenerates the same in their absolute hatred of God, according to Calvin? But here we have two different kinds of people living in Chorazin and Tyre, and you claim they are both unregenerate.

Back later.

962 posted on 01/24/2002 10:27:30 AM PST by White Mountain
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 942 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson