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To: Sueann; rdb3
"Christ did not die for each and every man"

If you are going to maintain that Christ died for every single man, then you need to show evidence of "Universal Salvation" in the Bible. I can easily reconcile the Timothy verse you are referring to with the rest of scripture.

While you consider your post, please answer me this question: Before God spoke the very first word of creation, did He know all details of His creation from who would be saved and down even to the last detail of every single thought of all His created "dirt"?

7 posted on 01/20/2002 5:50:48 PM PST by CCWoody
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To: CCWoody
I understand your premise that God could know beforehand who would accept Him and who wouldn't; but didn't He have hope in His heart that others would also choose Him; if the opportunity was presented?; not just his "chosen"?

Well, then, how about "all are called but few are chosen". What do we do with the word "all" - to me it means ALL. It doesn't mean ALL WILL - to me it means ALL have the equal opportunity presented to them. And ... this is where I rely on God saying it's His desire that none should perish. And ... therefore He would have to die for ALL.

14 posted on 01/20/2002 6:20:18 PM PST by Sueann
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To: CCWoody
Christ died for each and every man. The act of his death is not salvation in and of itself. His shed blood split the veil that allowed access to the Father as the living sacrifice. It is in following him (or slavation, or being born again, or whatever term you desire) that salvation occurs.

I personally, thanks be to God, would be afraid to say "Christ did not die for every man", as it would come from a proud heart. And we know how God is about pride, don't we? It is God who draws. And it is God who hardens. Where is pride? Where is arrogance and boasting?

16 posted on 01/20/2002 6:30:55 PM PST by RedBloodedAmerican
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To: CCWoody
Christ died for all ... BUT one MUST RECEIVE the gift ... not all will receive the Gift but the Gift is offered to ALL ... Revelation 22:17 is clear on that ... if you're not Saved it's not because it wasn't offered to you, it's because you refused to embrace it ... it's like someone holding a winning prize ticket for you, but you never claim the ticket ... so it goes unused ...

Bobby

SufferingMessiah.Com - The Crucifixion of Christ
22 posted on 01/20/2002 6:49:11 PM PST by Bobby777
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To: CCWoody
If you are going to maintain that Christ died for every single man, then you need to show evidence of "Universal Salvation" in the Bible. I can easily reconcile the Timothy verse you are referring to with the rest of scripture

No, it only makes all men savable, stop putting your Calvinistic presuppositions into the mix. As for'reconciling' the verse from Timothy, please do.

Even so, come Lord Jesus

120 posted on 01/20/2002 8:32:15 PM PST by fortheDeclaration
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To: CCWoody

"If you are going to maintain that Christ died for every single man, then you need to show evidence of 'Universal Salvation' in the Bible."

That statement is false on many levels. First and foremost, if you are going to maintain
that Christ didn't die for all, and that that God does
want some to perish, you have to address the verses that
say otherwise, rather than shying away and setting up
your 'Universal Salvation' straw man.

"For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men" (Titus 2:11).

To do so you're coming from yet another assumption plucked from your wilted Tulip that man cannot resist God.
But if you've ever read the Old Testament, you know that
cannot be true. For God's elect, the Jews, frequently abandoned their faith for idol worship.

And we can resist God's grace and mercy.
"You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did" (Acts 7:51).

So if God has called all men, and yet all are not saved,
what is the only logical conclusion? That God has enabled
man to freely accept or freely reject Him.
If not so, this should NOT be in the Bible:
"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you" (Matthew 7:7). Also see Luke 11:9.


"Before God spoke the very first word of creation, did He know all details of His creation from who would be saved and down even to the last detail of every single thought of all His created 'dirt'?"

Yes, of course, but foreknowledge doesn't imply causation.

"For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren" (Romans 8:29). Why bother
about the word 'foreknew' if it hadn't meaning? If predestined savlation required no role on man's part whatsoever, the passage would simply omit that reference to
foreknowledge. But foreknowledge doesn't imply causation.
God knew who would be saved not because He directly caused them to be saved, but He knew who would be saved when He gives them the opportunity.

Also, you're looking at God as if He is also bound by a linear timeline. We exist at the point where the future intersects the past, and once we live through those moments, we no longer have access to those moments. But God isn't bound by linear time; He is atemporal, existing in the past, present, and future (to put it in human terms), and has all eternity and all access to each and every moment that has occurred. See 'Mere Christianity', by C.S. Lewis for more on that.


1,820 posted on 01/21/2005 8:50:59 AM PST by Literati1984
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