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To: CCWoody; jerryM
1 John 2:2 1 John 2 1 John 2:1-3 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
672 posted on 01/23/2002 10:46:41 AM PST by xzins
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To: xzins; CCWoody
Coupled with the verses you quote from I John, there is this verse in the Gospel of John:

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. (John 12:32)

However, are all saved? If not, then maybe "the world" and "all men" mean something different than "all men without exception".

675 posted on 01/23/2002 11:02:56 AM PST by Jerry_M
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To: xzins; CCWoody; RnMomof7
1 John 2:2 is a beautiful verse presenting the free offer of the gospel, which free offer all true Calvinists specifically affirm. But we can't press 1 John 2:2 into the service of universalism. If every sin of every man is efficiently propitiated, then there is no hell for us to shun.

Thus, the point of 1 John 2:2 can be grasped only when we realize that John is writing to Jews and warning them away from Hebrew exclusivism. In view of what I just said above, this has to be what John is saying.

***

If you need further support, I can give you more. But you will have to humbly allow the Scriptures themselves to interpret 1 John 2:2. (See below.) First of all, John is designated in Galatians 2:9 as an apostle to the Jews. So, my claim that John is warning the Jews about Hebrew exclusivism makes pretty obvious sense, I believe.

In the next place, the same apostle, writing in his Gospel, makes a wonderfully peculiar observation of a strange statement by Caiaphas the high priest. This statement struck John as containing a supernatural teaching point from a seemingly unlikely source! John would later remember Caiaphas's spiritually eerie statement and pen it, only slightly altered in wording, as 1 John 2:2!

So, to see what 1 John 2:2 actually means, look at John 11:51-52. The statement is almost identical to what John would later write in his First Epistle.

Read the two passages side-by-side, phrase-by-phrase, to see what I mean. These two passages are manifestly making the same point!

Now,since John 11:51-52 is obviously what moved John to write 1 John 2:2, we probably ought to use John 11:51-52 in the interpretation. And notice that John 11:51-52 says precisely what the Calvinist affirms concerning the Atonement!

The doctrine of the Atonement is a pretty strange doctrine. But the Spirit of Christ really is jealous to defend the correct statement of the doctrine. The death of christ is offerable to all who hear the offer--and this by divine design--but it also mysteriously designed to convert and sanctify the elect and the elect only.

***

Please think about this stuff. The Cross of Christ is powerful to save sinners. It converts elect souls. It breaks stubborn hearts in repentance and thereby bends their wills back to God for real for the first time since they fell in Adam!

When you get this vision of the Cross of Christ, evangelism becomes exciting. This is why Calvinists, not Arminians, have historically been the most agressive missionaries in the lousiest places in the world!

If you want some more stuff to chew on, I would urge you to read #73.

681 posted on 01/23/2002 11:41:42 AM PST by the_doc
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To: xzins; Jerry_M; the_doc
1 John 2:2 1 John 2 1 John 2:1-3 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Very well. Let's take your supposition to it's logical end:

Please explain to me how the inhabitants of 7 contintents were following after Jesus:

John 12:19 The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, "You see that you are accomplishing nothing. Look, the world has gone after Him!"
BTW, are you a canibal?
John 6:53 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.
From the_doc's post #72 or #73 on this same thread:
And what about post-Calvary folks in the jungles of New Guinea? What will happen to them in particular if they never even hear the gospel message of the New Testament? In other words, in what sense did Christ die to save them in particular if the Omnipotent Spirit of Almighty God is not pleased to GET the missionaries ALL THE WAY out in the middle of nowhere to present the message of the gospel to them in particular?

(How can the Third Person of the Trinity be said to be committed to the salvation of these folks in particular if He does not pull out all stops to get the gospel message to them in particular? And if the Second Person of the Trinity died to save them in particular, how come the Third Person of God is not always clearly and dynamically interested in saving them in particular? [Sometimes the Omnipotent Spirit deliberately leaves providential doors of opportunity closed!])

My point is that the Lord's atoning death can offer folks no saving good whatsoever if they never even get to hear the message. (This is precisely why Calvinists are such energetic jungle missionaries. We know that the unevangelized souls are doomed as having no atonement if we Christians can't even get to them with the New Testament message.)

You need to rethink your position!
684 posted on 01/23/2002 11:57:33 AM PST by CCWoody
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