I wasn't assigning blame for the reason that the thread had drifted off topic, only pointing out that it had. However, I notice that while you continue to address the reasons we are discussing Luther (I can take him or leave him, he really doesn't figure much in my thinking.), you didn't address my question about the basic nature of man. This was also obvious in the way that you presented six or seven different interpretations of doc's passage on the Lie of Eden without giving your view on the subject.
Let's cut to the chase:
Is unregenerate man spiritually dead, or just spiritually sick? In all honesty, this is the foundational question that will determine the future direction of all of our important conversations.
Hooked, huh???!!!! LOL! (me, too.)
Based on the interpretation of John 3 that I gave above, you must already know that I believe unregenerate man is spiritually dead. At the same time, there is something called a "worm" that exists eternally and can be punished eternally. "Where their worm never dies and the fire is not quenched....(or something like that.) Gotta look that word "worm" up (there is no translation I have that doesn't translate it "worm.")
There is also, of course, the issue of whether "death of spirit" means "extinction." The following verse "12 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart" is probably to be applied universally. That implies that even unregenerate man is not devoid of a spirit (extinct), but rather is possessed of a dead spirit.
This fits in perfectly with Wesley's view, then, that God has left a "communication device" within the dead spirit of man; i.e., "law of God written on their hearts, their consciences now accusing now excusing them." This fits perfectly with John's "John 1 8 that one was not the Light, but -- that he might testify about the Light. 9 He was the true Light, which doth enlighten every man, coming to the world; 10 in the world he was, and the world through him was made, and the world did not know him:
Jesus therefore does ENLIGHTEN EVERY MAN coming into the world (Young's literal translation.). When enlightened via the light (perhaps via the conscience but not necessary by virtue of John 1:9.) every man then makes an eternal decision. Perhaps, His Spirit strives with some more than with others. That appears to be the case when he says that the children of believers are "set apart = sanctified" by the faith of the parents.