I wanted to answer Doc’s questions in post #73. I did this mostly as a learning exercise for myself. This is not a criticism of Doc. I hope you find value in it, even if you disagree with it.
Have you ever thought about the different ways the Lord speaks to you? His voice does not always come from expected sources. I encourage everyone to listen carefully to opposing viewpoints regardless of your theological position.
I am not Calvinist. I am not an Arminian. I can’t confine myself to any particular “man-made” theology. If I had to say, I’m probably somewhere between a Calvinist and a Dispensationalist. I encourage everyone to not let any theology come between you and Christ. If all these debates over theology confuse you or wear on you go to Galatians and read what Paul says about living in the freedom of Christ.
Now to the questions:
“There were people who were already physically dead and beyond even the possibility of salvation when Christ did His atoning work. In what saving sense did He die for them in particular?”
The statement seems to be saying that those who died before Christ could not be saved. I don’t agree. Salvation is the same throughout history. The timing of Christ’s death on the cross is irrelevant. God’s Grace has been displayed in every age. The basis of salvation in every age is the death of Christ. Those who were physically dead before Christ’s death were saved or not saved by God’s grace through faith according to God’s revelation. Scriptural evidence: God gave the promise of Christ to Abraham. Abraham had faith in this revelation and was saved by God’s grace. Genesis 15:1-6 and Romans 4:18-25
So Christ’s atoning work was also for those who lived and died prior to his time. See also Habakkuk 2:1-4.
From Henry’s commentary on Habakkuk:
Synopsis: - Habakkuk must wait in faith. (1-4)
”He will rest his soul on the promise, and on Christ, in and through whom it is given. Thus he walks and works, as well as lives by faith, perseveres to the end, and is exalted to glory; while those who distrust or despise God's all-sufficiency will not walk uprightly with him. The just shall live by faith in these precious promises, while the performance of them is deferred. Only those made just by faith, shall live, shall be happy here and for ever.”
“And what about post-Calvary folks in the jungles of New Guinea? What will happen to them in particular if they never even hear the gospel message of the New Testament?”
If they never hear the Gospel message then they are lost, but the failure is theirs, not God’s. God reveals his truth to all men (by the Great Commission, by conscience, by creation, and by many other agents), but men everywhere suppress that truth. The man in the jungles of New Guinea is inexcusable. (Rom 1:20).
God’s judgment of the people past and present who are “untold” is based not on their response to unrevealed truth but to their lack of response to what they have received.
The “untold” man in the middle of the Amazon or the heart of Los Angeles is not simply innocent or misinformed. Their fall is willful. God’s judgment is warranted and true. (Rom 2:1–3)
In other words, in what sense did Christ die to save them in particular if the Omnipotent Spirit of Almighty God is not pleased to GET the missionaries ALL THE WAY out in the middle of nowhere to present the message of the gospel to them in particular?
The value of Christ’s death is unchanged. The power of Christ’s death is not diminished by the absence of missionaries. The “untold” are responsible and are not innocent.
(This is not an argument against evangelism. On the contrary, the Great Commission is highly important.)
How can the Third Person of the Trinity be said to be committed to the salvation of these folks in particular if He does not pull out all stops to get the gospel message to them in particular?
The Lord has “pulled out all the stops” to reveal his plan to the world. He does stop short of forcing men to accept the revelation. Every person has sufficient knowledge to be held liable for sin. In Romans, Paul gives the explanations and reasons for man’s inexcusable state.
”No matter how isolated a man may be from the revelation of God’s righteousness in the gospel of Jesus Christ, that man is entirely without excuse. The wrath of God is on him because of his ungodliness and unrighteousness, not because of his lack of faith in Christ.” –J. Ronald Blue
And if the Second Person of the Trinity died to save them in particular, how come the Third Person of God is not always clearly and dynamically interested in saving them in particular?
I see no reason to think this. The Lord is always, clearly, dynamically interested in saving man. His judgment is his and his alone and should not be seen as a lack of interest in saving us. We are all already under condemnation. That the Lord provides a way for any of us to escape his wrath is powerful evidence. I would not accuse him of lack of interest.
It is implied in these questions that the value of Christ’s atonement is connected to results of man’s salvation. That is, if someone is not saved then Christ’s atonement had no value. I don’t agree. Man does not determine the value of Christ’s atonement. Man cannot decrease the value of the atonement by rejecting Christ. God set the value of Christ’s atonement. It cannot be diminished.
Peace in Christ,
JWinNC
Nicely put. To which I might add: "It is finished!"
I freely confess that this sentence caught my eye, and that having read it, I decided not to read the rest.
JW, you have never grasped anything of importance on these threads. My statement does NOT "seem to be saying that those who died before Christ could not be saved."
You are trying to evade the theological issue. This is what you always do on these threads.
Maybe Jerry or OP or some of the others will engage you in a debate, but I won't. My #73 still stands. You haven't answered it. You have only pretended to answer it.