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To: xzins; CCWoody
Woody, do you think that if God had done the same for Mr Y, that Mr Y would have similarly fallen down and worshipped Him?

That is really a good question! The answer, of course, is no, but the significant question is "why?" Clearly "Y" was predestined to eternal death and "X" was predestined to eternal life. Thus, even if God revealed himself to "Y" he would not choose to fall down and worship God because God did not "choose" him. It seems that the Calvinists are satisfied that God chose "X" for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with "X" and he did not choose "Y" for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with "Y". If that is true, then is God's choice random? It would appear so. That was the point of 1528.

However, if God saw something in "X" or something in "Y" that prompted his choice, then it would appear that his choice could be objectively seen as "just." But if it has nothing to do with "X" or "Y" on an internal or spiritual level, then by what measure can we measure the justness of His decision?

Just asking.

1,590 posted on 01/31/2002 9:53:51 AM PST by P-Marlowe
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To: P-Marlowe; xzins; CCWoody; RnMomof7; the_doc; OrthodoxPresbyterian
Re. 1590.

Isn't it interesting tht both Woody and myself answered xzin's question in the affirmative, but you state that Calvinists must answer it in the negative. So much for granting your opponents the charity of understanding their position.

What you don't realize is the fact that God's election is a complete package, i.e. it consists of His gracious choice and the application of His grace to the sinner all the way to glorification. You assume that we must believe that it is limited to His choice, and does not consist of the entirety of His redemptive work.

1,591 posted on 01/31/2002 9:59:58 AM PST by Jerry_M
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To: P-Marlowe; xzins
Look at both 1528 and 1583.

If you consider that xzins formulation of 1528 proves that Calvinists are guilty of making God unfair, how can you avoid the same conclusion about Arminians as presented in 1583?

1,592 posted on 01/31/2002 10:10:38 AM PST by Jerry_M
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To: P-Marlowe; Jerry_M; xzins; RnMomof7
However, if God saw something in "X" or something in "Y" that prompted his choice, then it would appear that his choice could be objectively seen as "just." But if it has nothing to do with "X" or "Y" on an internal or spiritual level, then by what measure can we measure the justness of His decision?

And just what would God see in "X"? What merit does "X" have over "Y"? And just how would this then not make God a respector of "X" based upon what He has seen in "X"?

BTW, to answer your question: There is no flesh justified in His sight. Against Him and Him only have we sinned and done evil in His sight--That He is just when He speaks, and blameless when He judges! (Psalm 51:4)

'nuff said!

Aside to xzins: How about this "draft" pick?

1,600 posted on 01/31/2002 1:06:48 PM PST by CCWoody
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