How do you deal with Old Testament men of faith? The whole Holy Spirit experience of the new testament is a new thing. John 20 where Jesus breathes on the apostles and says to them "receive the Holy Spirit" indicates that people who were already men of faith were receiving/going to receive (depending on how interpreted) something new.
In fact, Jesus said "the Father will send the Comforter" and "when the Comforter comes," indicating again that this was to be future. This is later in John, yet in the 3rd Chapter he tells Nicodemus to be reborn. Was that informational, or was it possible for Nicodemus to have been reborn at that time?
So, again, how did this operate in the OT?
And, before the law, how did it happen with Abraham?
And what about that priest of Midian who became Moses' father-in-law....Jethro?
I believe and every Calvinist in our little "tag-team" fully believes that God has given man real free will; namely that God has given man a will to do whatsoever man wants to do. I do get the feeling that you simply have a hard time acknowledging that we really do believe in man's free will. I simply could not be a Calvinist if I did not fully believe in man's real free will. Therefore, I fully believe that if any man is thirsty then he will come to Christ and drink (John 7:39, Revelation 22:17).
However, I also fully believe that a man must be in point of fact thirsty before he will drink from the waters of life. So, I deny that a man has any kind of a free will where he will do something that he does not want to do. And it is this distinction which means that for a man to truly seek God it requires a prior supernatural experience (Deuteronomy 4:29, Jeremiah 29:13): And ye shall seek Me and find Me when ye shall search for Me with all your heart.
Man is born spiritually dead; he needs to be reborn. God did not lie:
Genesis 2:16-17 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it. For in the day that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die."
Man surely died that day. And men who are spiritually dead do not seek after spiritual things. The question simply then becomes does the scriptures affirm that man truly does not seek God in any meaningful way. The answer is it does:
Isaiah 64:5b-7 You are indeed angry, for we have sinned--In these ways we continue; And we need to be saved.
But we are all like an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; we all fade as a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. And there is no one who calls on Your name, who stirs himself up to take hold of You; for You have hidden Your face from us, and have consumed us because of our iniquities.
Romans 3:10-11, 23 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; there is none that understandeth; there is none that seeketh after God…. for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
Man is surely born spiritually dead:
Romans 7: 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
Romans 8: 5 - 8 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
1 Corinthians 2: 14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
And it is even worse:
2 Corinthians 4:4 But if our Gospel be hid, it is hid to those who are lost, whose unbelieving minds the god of this world hath blinded, lest the light of the glorious Gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Therefore, saving faith in Christ always involves a profound change in a man's heart. It is not merely professing to the truth of something. Conversion unto salvation is an unbelievable Gift from God: God has granted repentance unto life (Acts 11:18); God exalted Christ… to give repentance to Israel (Acts 5:31); God opened a door to faith to the Gentiles (Acts 14:27); The Lord opened Lydia's heart (Acts16:14); even when we were dead God made us alive (Ephesians 2:1,5).
1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God...
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, "Verily, verily I say unto thee, unless a man be born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God."
Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the Word of the Lord; and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
How do you deal with Old Testament men of faith? The whole Holy Spirit experience of the new testament is a new thing. John 20 where Jesus breathes on the apostles and says to them "receive the Holy Spirit" indicates that people who were already men of faith were receiving/going to receive (depending on how interpreted) something new. - xzins
True, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is a new thing, but the regeneration of a man's dead spirit is not:
Titus 3:5 He saved us not by works of righteousness which we had done, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration, and by the renewing of the Holy Ghost,…
Isaiah 44:22 I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and as a cloud, thy sins; return unto Me, for I have redeemed thee.
1 Kings 19:18 Yet I have reserved seven thousand in Israel, all whose knees have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him.
In fact, Jesus said "the Father will send the Comforter" and "when the Comforter comes," indicating again that this was to be future. This is later in John, yet in the 3rd Chapter he tells Nicodemus to be reborn. Was that informational, or was it possible for Nicodemus to have been reborn at that time? - xzins
This would confuse the regeneration of a dead man's spirit with the indwelling of a man by the Holy Spirit. But, just because a man may ask questions, does not mean that he is born of God:
Luke 18:22-24 Now when Jesus heard these things, He said unto him, "Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in Heaven; and come, follow Me." And when he heard this he was very sorrowful, for he was very rich. And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, He said, "How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the Kingdom of God!Notice Nicodemus question (John 3): "Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God,..." Now contrast that with these words of Peter (Matthew 16): "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." And Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Fater who is in heaven." But to Nicodemus He says: "Are you the teacher of Isreal, and do not know these things?"
Jesus is clearly saying that these people should already know all about what it means to be to be born of God.
So, again, how did this operate in the OT? And, before the law, how did it happen with Abraham? And what about that priest of Midian who became Moses' father-in-law....Jethro? - xzins
Can I admit that I do not have all the answers! Nevertheless, we do know that the Spirit of God was with David.
John 6:44 No man can come to Me unless the Father who hath sent Me draw him; and I will raise him up at the Last Day.