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You say that God is POWERFUL ENOUGH to make it so that mankind has real free will, to include the capability to "want" both sides of an issue. Do you believe that God is LOVING ENOUGH to make it so that mankind has real free will, to include the capability to "want" both sides of an issue? (1) God is LOVING ENOUGH. (2) God is NOT loving enough. We have already established that God is POWERFUL ENOUGH to do so.... Do you believe that God is FAIR/JUST? 1007 posted on 1/24/02 6:07 PM Pacific by xzins [

Yup.

I'm happy to affirm that Man was created with "the capability to 'want' both sides of an issue" as you put it, to want to obey God, or to disobey God, and could have chosen either.

And, thereafter, Man Fell.

And I further affirm, that as a result of this Fall, that all of the spiritually-vital, God-pleasing Wants of Man's original Nature are lying dead in a pool of their own blood at the base of the Tree of Knowledge, murdered by Man's own hand. That ever since the Fall, his Will is free, but the Wants which inform his Will have been wholly remanded over to depravity and hatred of God.

Taken together, then, Man has free will, and Man hates God; and so he hates God freely and willfully.

But all that is immaterial to the case at hand. To wit:

As I have said: I am entirely willing, for the sake of discussion, to throw out the Calvinist doctrine of Total Depravity and suppose that Man, even in his natural, Fallen state, nonetheless possesses wholly uninhibited free will and utterly unencumbered natural moral competence to Repent and "choose life".

Because even making these allowances doesn't help your position one bit.

I am not herein particularly concerned with proving Calvinism per se, but simply the precedent doctrinal matter of Absolute Sovereign Predestination -- that God, of His own Sovereign Will, absolutely pre-determines the individual choices of Men, to Repent or not to Repent.

Let's take it from the top. Assume that Tyre, Sidon, and Sodom possess all the free will and natural moral competence you want, and God has still absolutely pre-determined what their choices are going to be, by His control of the factors (such as displays of miracles) which inform their Free Will.

Here it is again:

Matthew 11: 20 - 27 -- Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. "Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you." At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure." All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

God foreknew Tyre and Sidon's free choice NOT TO REPENT in the case of His non-performance of such Miracles; AND
God foreknew Tyre and Sidon's free choice TO REPENT in the case of His performance of such Miracles; AND
God CHOSE not to perform these Miracles in Tyre and Sidon, a choice which had as its perfectly foreknown result the NON-Repentance of Tyre and Sidon, just as He foreknew.
True, or False?

You know that what Jesus is teaching here: that God has specifically pre-determined the individual choices of Men.

These are the actual words of Jesus.
And I accuse you of understanding His words, and hating them.

Prove me wrong. Answer the question as to the recorded facts of the case.