Posted on 01/20/2002 5:02:48 PM PST by CCWoody
I have just told you I will reject any logic that makes God look hard-hearted and uncaring. You propose a view that does that. Obviously, since God is not so, your analysis of Tyre versus Chorazin is flawed.
God consigning to hell those who have had no chance to freely choose Him is unfair and hard-hearted. God allowing everyone a chance to choose Him and avoid hell upholds the view that God is fair and caring.
You err in allowing your own particular logic to dictate your understanding of God. God MUST be righteous (therefore, fair) and God MUST be loving (therefore, caring.)
Now, I want you to look very carefully at the words that I emphasized above. Do you see them? Freely Chosen.Now,according to your system they cannot freely choose. So how can that be?
What the Lord saying (setting aside your attempts to be clever) is the Jew is going to face a much worse punishment for refusing to believe after seeing the miracles they did. This is the pointof the rebuke to them. Your attempts to read Calvinism are not only wrong they are absurd
You have admitted that God's choices pre-determined whether or not the Tyrians would choose to Repent, hence, God absolutely predestines some to Salvation and some to Damnation of His own sovereign Will and His election to that effect pre-determines Man's choices to Repent or to Not Repent.
God's choice was that the cities condemned had enough evidence to choose to repent but did not. The Jews have even more and they still refuse to repent. Now, the fact that not everyone is given the same revelation is far different then no one having any choice to believe or not once evidence is given.
You have to give up your total depravity premise to even make sense of that verse since you have the words freely choose.
Oh, I forgot, words have no meaning in Calvinism. They mean whatever you want them to mean.
This same passage was put forward last year by some guy named Uriel (whatever happened to him) and it was answered then. As a matter of fact, before Rnmomof7 was deceived, she and I discussed it and she admitted that the verse disproved Calvinism not supported it (remember Rnmomof7)?
Anyway, the verse has to do with judging the Jews for not freely believing the signs they received and the greater punishment they would receive. It shows that they were not Predestinated to fall, but chose to.
Adam had a choice to freely choose God. Adam freely chose to disobey God. All of humanity fell in Adam therefore we all deserve top go to hell.
You assume that one is fallen because they reject Jesus Christ. The truth is that one is fallen BEFORE he rejects Jesus Christ, in fact, the sinner rejects Christ because he IS fallen already.
I'm not asking you to review "my" analysis of Matthew 11.
I'm simply asking that you answer one question about Matthew 11.
True, or False?
I submit that you know that the only possible Biblical answer to this question is, "True".
And I further submit that you understand Christ's words on the matter... and that you hate them.
We cannot get to Heaven by worshipping a "Christ" of our own imagining. Only by worshipping Jesus as Infallible Lord shall we attain eternal glory and escape everlasting perdition.
So:
The matter is the real words spoken by the real Jesus. You can either love them, or hate them. There is no middle ground.
Yet, you claim that if Sodom had seen the miracles they would have freely repented? How could they unless they had been Predestinated first. That is not what the Lord said. He said they would respond to the miracles
According to your system that is impossible. What you are doing is sneaking in Predestination as a given and are therefore begging the question
Either those cities could have responded to the call with more evidence or not. If predestination was the issue the amount of evidence becomes irrevelant.
God is so righteous and so caring that God provided a plan of redemption (even for Adam.) Therefore, what I deserve is not even the issue. The issue is God's loving, righteous plan to provide redemption to all who turn to Him.
How can a fallen man who is spiritually dead turn to Jesus Christ?
Romans 3
10: As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12: They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
In the garden, Jesus said, "Father take this cup from me."
Therefore, Because Jesus prayed it, Jesus could have not gone to the cross. True or False?
Ah, the real face of Calvinism! Sodom was not destroyed because God wanted it, but because it was wicked. He would have spared it had he found 10 righteous people in it. He did so with Ninevah,
And God saw their works (oh, that can't be!) that they turned from their evil way, and God repented of the evil, that he had said would do unto them and he did it not(Jonah.3:10)
How about that, a 'decree' that got overturned because a whole city repented when told they were going to be destroyed.
God gets no pleasure at of destroying the wicked,
And should I not spare Ninevah, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand and also much cattle.(Jonah,4:10)
Jonah was a 'good' Calvinist. He was depending on that decree being carried out! God, however cares about those He has created, even the wicked, hoping they will repent (2Pet.3:9)
Because God predestinates some to be regenerated by the Sovereign Grace which He works thorugh Gospel Preaching (e.g., the 3,000 immediately after Pentecost) and some to be regenerated by the Sovereign Grace which He works through Miracles. Calvinists do not deny this; we know that God has many Means of Grace, and He uses whatever suits His Purpose to accomplish His Decree.
That is not what the Lord said. He said they would respond to the miracles. According to your system that is impossible.
Nope. Had God seen fit to Predestine these people to Repent and be Saved, He could have used the Grace of Miracles to bring about their Repentance. In fact, Jesus says it is certain that they would have Repented, had God seen fit to display such miracles.
But God did not Purpose to predestine them to Repentance and Salvation, but rather to predestine them to Non-Repentance and Damnation. And so, he selected the Option (NON-performance of miracles) which would pre-determine the decision of Tyre and Sidon to NOT Repent, and be Damned.
And you have acknowledged that He knew what He was doing, what each Option entailed, and that He deliberately selected this option, and that their Non-Repentance was thus the pre-determined result of His decision, just as He foresaw.
What you are doing is sneaking in Predestination as a given and are therefore begging the question Either those cities could have responded to the call with more evidence or not. If predestination was the issue the amount of evidence becomes irrevelant.
On the contrary. God, who has designed the human soul, knows "how much" Grace and "what kind" of Grace will be sufficient to bring any man to Repentance.
And had God seen fit to Predestine these people to Repent and be Saved, He could have used the Grace of Miracles to bring about their Repentance. In fact, Jesus says it is certain that they would have Repented, had God seen fit to display such miracles.
But God did not Purpose to predestine them to Repentance and Salvation, but rather to predestine them to Non-Repentance and Damnation. And so, he selected the Option (NON-performance of miracles) which would pre-determine the decision of Tyre and Sidon to NOT Repent, and be Damned.
And you have acknowledged that He knew what He was doing, what each Option entailed, and that He deliberately selected this option, and that their Non-Repentance was thus the pre-determined result of His decision, just as He foresaw.
As I said -- give Tyre and Sidon all the free will and natural moral competence you like, and you still cannot escape from the fact that God, by His election, absolutely predestined their NON-Repentance unto Damnation. This is what you are desperately trying to avoid... and you can't.
You continue to be frightened by biblical understanding. The principles are these: (1) God is Righteous, (2) God is loving.
The answer to your question is: God will provide a way that is both RIGHTEOUS AND LOVING for one who is spiritually dead to turn to Jesus Christ. (God will provide a lamb!)
Irrelevant. Jesus performed His miracles by the Power of the Father.
...and the Father did not elect that miracles should be performed in those cities which would bring them to Repentance... but rather, that they should be left in their Non-Repentance and Damned.
In the garden, Jesus said, "Father take this cup from me." ~~ Therefore, Because Jesus prayed it, Jesus could have not gone to the cross. True or False?
"My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will"
It was not possible, for the Father had decreed that the Son must die to purchase His Elect from the penalty of Sin.
I agree God provided a Lamb. But how can a fallen man, of his own naturally sinful want and desire, turn to the Lamb?
We have gone over this before George. In his commentaries Calvin does not try to squeeze his TULIP into the passages. He lets them speak for themself. It is in his Institutes that his philosophical speculation takes over.
The predestination of Augustine and Calvin is not Biblical. Calvin could never understand how order and freedom could co-exist, hence his tyrannical reign in Geneva (yea, the trains ran on time)(now,some one will say that ftd believes that there were trains back then!)
Calvinism taken to its logical conclusion is a cold heartless system. Now, are all Calvinists such, no. Many do not give any thought to the issue and live as the Bible commands despite Calvinism. They preach the gospel to the lost and do not consider if they are the elect or not, they just want to reach them.
He was proud that he was following Augustine, who made a mess of the whole thing.
For the sake of discussion, I could even grant your ideas about God "changing His mind", and yet you still cannot escape the Fact that God, who has designed the human soul, knows "how much" Grace and "what kind" of Grace will be sufficient to bring any man to Repentance.
And had God seen fit to Predestine the people of Tyre and Sidon to Repent and be Saved, He could have used the Grace of Miracles to bring about their Repentance. In fact, Jesus says it is certain that they would have Repented, had God seen fit to display such miracles.
But God did not Purpose to predestine them to Repentance and Salvation, but rather to predestine them to Non-Repentance and Damnation. And so, he selected the Option (NON-performance of miracles) which would pre-determine the decision of Tyre and Sidon to NOT Repent, and be Damned.
And you have acknowledged that He knew what He was doing, what each Option entailed, and that He deliberately selected this option, and that their Non-Repentance was thus the pre-determined result of His decision, just as He foresaw.
As I said -- give Tyre and Sidon all the free will and natural moral competence you like, and you still cannot escape from the fact that God, by His election, absolutely predestined their NON-Repentance unto Damnation. Oh, we can wave our hands and suppose that God would have changed His mind if they had repented, but He knew for a fact that they would not -- for He knew that they would Repent given the performance of equivalent miracles to those performed in Chorazin and Bethsaida, but He did not purpose to predestine their Repentance, but rather to predestine their Non-Repentance unto Damnation. This is what you are desperately trying to avoid... and you can't.
I am saying that the passionate and consuming Want of His Person is to do the Will of His Father, and so He freely obeys that Will.
God is powerful enough, Righteous enough, and loving enough to provide a way. Do you believe that God is powerful enough to provide a way for a sinful man to turn to Christ?
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