For Whom Did Christ Die? - Calvinism

The Spurgeon Archives ^ | Delivered on Lord's-Day Morning, September 6th, 1874 | C.H. Spurgeon

[Jerry_M]

Sounds to me that your experience with a certain group of so-called Christians caused you to "throw the baby out with the bathwater". Is this why you are so hostile towards the "doctrines of grace"?

[connectthedots]

Yes, I still contend that you don't understand our inside joke. It is not a Calvinist inside joke, it is a limited number of FR Calvinists' inside joke. It honestly is an inside joke, and you are definitely on the outside.

Typical of the arrogance of many extreme Calvinists; think they know something else no one else does.

[connectthedots]

I am not hostile at all towards the doctrine of grace. Without it, we would still be burdened by the Old Testament laws.

[George W. Bush]

I don't remember anyone ever ringing GWB's bell. In fact, I purposefully avoided pinging him to my Hebrews 10:14 comments. Does he search FR daily for references to Hebrews 10:14?

I continue to monitor. Obviously, with good reason.

Jerry_M to connectthedots: Sounds to me that your experience with a certain group of so-called Christians caused you to "throw the baby out with the bathwater". Is this why you are so hostile towards the "doctrines of grace"?

You are the Prince of Unintended Irony.

[the_doc]

Have you actually read Palmer's The Five Points of Calvinism?

Yes. Furthermore, I have a copy sitting on my bookshelf ten feet from me. But forget about it. Face the real music on this thread.

[Jerry_M]

"Typical of the arrogance of many extreme Calvinists; think they know something else no one else does."

Puhleeze!

We aren't talking about some great doctrinal secret here. You don't have "inside jokes" with your friends?

(Maybe if you behave we will let you know the secret handshake.)

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Profession of Faith in a Christian Reformed Church in the summer between my freshman and sophomore years in college. I can tell Dutch jokes with the best of them. I've even heard Palmer speak on the Five Points of Calvinism in a series of lectures. The Dutch Reformed Church, the precursor to the Christian Reformed Church, has been well known to be populated by people in the past who thought "If you ain't Dutch, you ain't much" and because I was not born into the Christian Reformed Church, I was considered by some to be a 'heathen' (a direct quote). There are few groups of religious people who are as arrogant as Dutch Reformers, who considered themselves to have a monopoly on the truth contained in the Bible, as they interpreted it. In other words, they thought they were perfect.

FWIW, the problem of "Dutch Reformed arrogance" has been noted by certain Calvinists. There have been criticisms of Dutch Reformed to the effect that they essentially regard Dutch Calvinism as the only "legitimate" brand, holding other national varieties in some disdain.

Remember, after all, it was a Dutchman (Jacobus Arminius) and his Dutch followers (the Remonstrants) who had the unmitigated arrogance to introduce heretical and UnBiblical doctrines of soteriological Synergism into the pure stream of Calvinist predestinarian truth, against the best judgments, advice, and warning of their more-thoughtful peers, willfully poisoning the doctrinal integrity and breaking the unified communion of Reformation Protestantism with their intransigent advocacy of error. Not from among the Swiss Calvinists or the English Calvinists or the Scottish Calvinists came this arrogant, willful intransigence in support of Synergistic heresy, but from among the Dutch.

Sadly, it is reputed to be true that some Dutch Calvinists are nearly as arrogant as were their obstinate Dutch Arminian rivals.

[connectthedots]

At the same time, you need to recognize (having the charity to understand our position, again) that just because someone, John Calvin included, says something as a "Calvinist" doesn't mean that we have to toe the line. I don't mean to confuse you over this anymore than you already are, but we normally don't give a fig for other men's opinions.

"Our position"; I want to know about your individual position. Who is right in your opinion, OP or Palmer? They both cannot be correct; it is impossible. Despite your claims that there is not Calvinistic line to toe, one opinion or the other cannot be Calvinistic; they are too inopposite to be reconciled.

It is not me who is confused. In earlier posts, you claim that if someone were to question your salvation that you would have to evaluate your life for indications that there might be some merit to their comments, yet here you claim you don't really care what others think. Which is it?

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

"Our position"; I want to know about your individual position. Who is right in your opinion, OP or Palmer? They both cannot be correct; it is impossible. Despite your claims that there is not Calvinistic line to toe, one opinion or the other cannot be Calvinistic; they are too inopposite to be reconciled.

As you have characterized Palmer's statement, the position is wrong.

Why would Palmer's statement be wrong? Well, as "the_doc" said: Face the Music. It is impossible to "get around" Absolute Predestination as long as God is Omniscient, whether or not Man is totally depraved in the equation, as I have demonstrated. See, if you thought that there were any way "around" Absolute Predestination, you would attempt to answer my #593:

---

Matthew 11: 20 - 27 -- Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. "Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you." At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure." All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

• God foreknew Tyre and Sidon's free choice NOT TO REPENT in the case of His non-performance of such Miracles; AND
• God foreknew Tyre and Sidon's free choice TO REPENT in the case of His performance of such Miracles; AND
• God CHOSE not to perform these Miracles in Tyre and Sidon, a choice which had as its perfectly foreknown result the NON-Repentance of Tyre and Sidon, just as He foreknew.

  True, or False?

---

But you are unwilling to answer this point, because you know that there is no answer you can bring which will not acknowledge God's absolute pre-determination of Man's individual choices. You know that the Bible is showing you this, and you do not want to believe the Bible. That's a bad spiritual condition in which to be.

[Jerry_M]

"I am not hostile at all towards the doctrine of grace."

If you look back, you will see that I mentioned the "doctrines of grace". "Doctrines of Grace" was Charles Haddon Spurgeon's (the guy whose sermon started this thread) description of the truths of Calvinism. However, he went further than that, and said:

I have my own private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the gospel, if we do not preach justification by faith, without works; nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in His dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing, unchangeable, eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor do I think we can preach the gospel, unless we base it upon the special and particular redemption of His elect and chosen people which Christ wrought out upon the cross; nor can I comprehend a gospel which lets saints fall away after they are called, and suffers the children of God to be burned in the fires of damnation after having once believed in Jesus. Such a gospel I abhor.

[Jerry_M]

"It is not me who is confused. In earlier posts, you claim that if someone were to question your salvation that you would have to evaluate your life for indications that there might be some merit to their comments, yet here you claim you don't really care what others think. Which is it?"

Both.

However, you are mixing apples with oranges. I care nothing for the doctrines of men, nor their opinions concerning spiritual truth. I care everything about my testimony of Christ to the world.

[xzins]

1 John 2:2 1 John 2 1 John 2:1-3 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

[Jerry_M]

My personal position?

Absolute predestination is only dependent upon the One predestinating. The fact that man is totally depraved is inconsequential to this truth.

[connectthedots]

Sadly, it is reputed to be true that some Dutch Calvinists are nearly as arrogant as were their obstinate Dutch Arminian rivals.

Or more so! An interesting question would be if Arminius and his followers statements of faith were intended as a response to the perverted doctrines on the Dutch Reformed Church or if their motivation came from another source.

Your comments regarding the Dutch Reformers goes a long way toward explaining why you disagree with Palmer; he was a Christian Reformed theologian. I personally think that Spurgeon was a great preacher of the true Gospel and articulated the true spirit of the reformation movement. I just would not call him a Calvinist when a 'Reformer' would be a much more appropriate discription of his theology.

You comments on this thread also seem to indicate that you believe that individuals can make decisions whether to make decisions for Christ to come into their lives to be their Savior. I could accept the position, or at least not want to spend much time arguing, that God knew in advance who would be receptive to the Gospel message, but to claim that God actually made the decision in advance in some arbitrary manner who would be saved and who would be condemned to Hell is an entirely different matter.

The problem I see with referring to someone like Spugeon as a Calvinist (BTW, did he consider himself to be a Calvinist, or is that just a label some people have tried to place on him?) is that if one was to read Calvin's Institutes, it does tend to support the Dutch Reformed positions in many cases, even though Calvin himself had serious doubts and concerns about much of what he wrote in his Institutes, doubts some extreme Calvinists onthis thread so willingly seem to simply blow off.

[Jerry_M]

Coupled with the verses you quote from I John, there is this verse in the Gospel of John:

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. (John 12:32)

However, are all saved? If not, then maybe "the world" and "all men" mean something different than "all men without exception".

[Jerry_M]

"Your comments regarding the Dutch Reformers goes a long way toward explaining why you disagree with Palmer; he was a Christian Reformed theologian. I personally think that Spurgeon was a great preacher of the true Gospel and articulated the true spirit of the reformation movement. I just would not call him a Calvinist when a 'Reformer' would be a much more appropriate discription of his theology."

First of all, you have not proven that Palmer said what you believe he said. Unlike "doc", my bookshelf is 70 miles away, but I believe that I have a copy of the work in question. OPie has not disagreed with Palmer, he has disagreed with your representation of Palmer, and there may be significant variance between what Palmer said and your presentation of same.

Secondly, why not affix the tag "Calvinist" to Spurgeon? He was certainly comfortable with the tag, as seen in my post # 670.

"...even though Calvin himself had serious doubts and concerns about much of what he wrote in his Institutes"

What is your basis for this statement? I don't believe that Calvin ever repudiated anything he wrote in the Institutes, even though there are those who attempt to make this case based upon his devotional treatment of Scripture in his Commentaries.

[RnMomof7]

I cry every time I hear it....Thank you

And can it be

4. Long my imprisoned spirit lay,
fast bound in sin and nature's night;
thine eye diffused a quickening ray;
I woke, the dungeon flamed with light;
my chains fell off, my heart was free,
I rose, went forth, and followed thee.
My chains fell off, my heart was free,
I rose, went forth, and followed thee.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

You comments on this thread also seem to indicate that you believe that individuals can make decisions whether to make decisions for Christ to come into their lives to be their Savior. I could accept the position, or at least not want to spend much time arguing, that God knew in advance who would be receptive to the Gospel message, but to claim that God actually made the decision in advance in some arbitrary manner who would be saved and who would be condemned to Hell is an entirely different matter.

No. You cannot say this, because Jesus Christ specifically stated that the Tyrians and Sidonians would have been receptive (in fact, would have utterly repented) had God seen fit to perform in them miracles equivalent to those He performed in Chorazin and Bethsaida. But He did not see fit to facilitate their repentance, choosing to Damn them instead.

Address the issue of Matthew 11:

---

Matthew 11: 20 - 27 -- Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. "Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you." At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure." All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

• God foreknew Tyre and Sidon's free choice NOT TO REPENT in the case of His non-performance of such Miracles; AND
• God foreknew Tyre and Sidon's free choice TO REPENT in the case of His performance of such Miracles; AND
• God CHOSE not to perform these Miracles in Tyre and Sidon, a choice which had as its perfectly foreknown result the NON-Repentance of Tyre and Sidon, just as He foreknew.

  True, or False?

---

I am not interested in Palmer or any of the rest of your post. Rather, I insist you address the quandary into which you are placed by Matthew 11.

Because these are the specific words of Christ Jesus.
And I am accusing you of understanding His words, and of hating them.

I challenge you to refute that accusation. In all honesty, I very much hope I am wrong.

Face the Music. Answer the question:

• God foreknew Tyre and Sidon's free choice NOT TO REPENT in the case of His non-performance of such Miracles; AND
• God foreknew Tyre and Sidon's free choice TO REPENT in the case of His performance of such Miracles; AND
• God CHOSE not to perform these Miracles in Tyre and Sidon, a choice which had as its perfectly foreknown result the NON-Repentance of Tyre and Sidon, just as He foreknew.

  True, or False?

[Jerry_M]

"You comments on this thread also seem to indicate that you believe that individuals can make decisions whether to make decisions for Christ to come into their lives to be their Savior. I could accept the position, or at least not want to spend much time arguing, that God knew in advance who would be receptive to the Gospel message, but to claim that God actually made the decision in advance in some arbitrary manner who would be saved and who would be condemned to Hell is an entirely different matter."

Where you get tripped up with regards to our beliefs is the fact that you won't believe us when we state that God has absolutely predestined some to salvation AND that man is responsible for his decisions. The fact that you can't reconcile it logically is no reason for you to not believe us when we tell you that this is our belief.

May I suggest J.I. Packer's Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God in helping you to see that this is so.

[xzins]

"Christ died for the ungodly."—Romans 5:6.

will draw all men unto me

not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world

I agree with your above expressed sentiment that all of these verses must fit together; that it's inappropriate to interpret one without recognition and incorporation of the others.