Posted on 01/20/2002 5:02:48 PM PST by CCWoody
Maybe if you say it enough times you will believe it. No, your defensiveness about "doc's" comments was something less than confidence.
Thank you! Perhaps if one was not "cryptically" challenged they might understand what that does say about this particular scripture verses:
"`Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.' This is the first and great commandment.One commandment; one pursuit; my joy; His Glory!And the second is like unto it: `Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.'
..as are ctd's repeated statements that he is very bright and that we are stupid by comparison.
(If this is confidence, it is pretty tawdry. ctd seems to be propping himself up. Not a good idea.)
As you must certainly know, words should be read in their context. When I said I was not perfect, the only reasonable interpretation in that context would be that it was an obvious admission that I did not become sinless in the present world.
Certainly, when a person becomes a Christian, he becomes a new creature who is presented as sinless to God, the Father, by Jesus Christ because Christ the blood of Christ has washed away our sins an so is perfect in that sense.
The word perfect has an additional meaning as well. When the Bible instructs us to become perfect, it means that we are to become more mature in our faith as we live our lives in closer obedience to His will. It does not mean that we will ever become 'perfect' in the way most people think of perfection, but only that we are to strive to become more and more like Christ in the way we live. The power to do this can only come through a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ lest anyone should boast.
Hey, he hasn't called me stupid, yet!
Palmer would agree with this. (All Calvinists would.)
Have you actually read Palmer's The Five Points of Calvinism?
If you were as smart as you say you are, then it should be quite clear that "doc" doesn't need to read Palmer, or anyone else for that matter, to make the statement that he did. One clue should be his There could be all sorts of predestinations of which we could conceive comment.
That is correct; I have not called you stupid.
Your Brother In Christ Jesus
Mel
Having been a member of a very Calvinistic church at one time, the inside joke did not escape my attention. My comments were for those who may not understand the Biblical interpretation of the word 'perfect'. As you may know, the best humor - especially those associated with sterotypes - always contains at least a small element of truth. At least you have a sense of humor about the whole thing.
I doubt that, seriously. That is due to the fact that the joke has nothing to do with Calvinism, and would not have been made known to you by belonging to any church, Calvinistic or otherwise. The inside joke is one known only to a small group of us Calvinists here on FreeRepublic.
However, if it makes you feel better to think that you are "in the know" I probably shouldn't burst your bubble. It might damage your PMA.
If Palmer, a Calvinist amongst Calvinists, asserts that all five points of Calvinism are interdependent, and OP claims that they are not; who is correct? They can't both be right, can they? Then on top of that, the_doc agrees with OP while at the same time asserting that Palmer would agree with the_doc (even though the_doc may not have read Palmer), yet Palmer and OP have differing opinions on the interdependency of the five points of Calvinism. I'd really like to see someone try to reconcile this mess.
In fact, I purposefully avoided pinging him to my Hebrews 10:14 comments. Does he search FR daily for references to Hebrews 10:14?
At the same time, you need to recognize (having the charity to understand our position, again) that just because someone, John Calvin included, says something as a "Calvinist" doesn't mean that we have to toe the line. I don't mean to confuse you over this anymore than you already are, but we normally don't give a fig for other men's opinions.
Profession of Faith in a Christian Reformed Church in the summer between my freshman and sophomore years in college. I can tell Dutch jokes with the best of them. I've even heard Palmer speak on the Five Points of Calvinism in a series of lectures. The Dutch Reformed Church, the precursor to the Christian Reformed Church, has been well known to be populated by people in the past who thought "If you ain't Dutch, you ain't much" and because I was not born into the Christian Reformed Church, I was considered by some to be a 'heathen' (a direct quote). There are few groups of religious people who are as arrogant as Dutch Reformers, who considered themselves to have a monopoly on the truth contained in the Bible, as they interpreted it. In other words, they thought they were perfect. Will you now still claim that I did not understand your inside joke or that there is an element of truth to it?
Touche'?
"I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son. And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha. What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed." --Romans 9
"I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying, Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded." --Romans 11:1-7
"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." --Ephesians 1:4-6
"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." --Ephesians 2:1-9
If he wasn't a predestinarian, he did a good job of pretending to be one.
Yes, I still contend that you don't understand our inside joke. It is not a Calvinist inside joke, it is a limited number of FR Calvinists' inside joke. It honestly is an inside joke, and you are definitely on the outside.
Okay.
If your characterization of Palmer is accurate, and Palmer maintains that absolute predestination is dependent upon the doctrine of Total Depravity, he's wrong.
It is impossible to "get around" Absolute Predestination as long as God is Omniscient, whether or not Man is totally depraved in the equation, as I have demonstrated. See, if you thought that there were any way "around" Absolute Predestination, you would attempt to answer my #593:
True, or False?
But you are unwilling to answer this point, because you know that there is no answer you can bring which will not acknowledge God's absolute pre-determination of Man's individual choices. You know that the Bible is showing you this, and you do not want to believe the Bible. That's a bad spiritual condition in which to be.
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