Posted on 01/20/2002 5:02:48 PM PST by CCWoody
God offers salvation to all, so in a real sense God does save sinners, but all one must do to be saved is to ask Jesus Christ into his/her heart. God desires that all be saved. It is not God who rejects a man, but it is man who rejects God.
How is the 'Greek' any diffent then what it is saying in English? The issue is (as Hank was making the arguement) If the 1st 'many' must mean 'all' since we know from Rom.3:22 that all have sinned, the second 'many' must mean all also. Frankly, I see nothing in the Greek that changes that.
Even so,come Lord Jesus
Click on my Profile to find out who are the House of Israel.
The question is not whether or not Men are capable of choosing God, but whether or not, in their natural, Fallen state, they ever want to.
Do you believe that Men, of their innate, Fallen natures, naturally possess God-pleasing Wants?
Of course Calvinism forces such strained and abnormal readings of scriptures such as these. In any case, free choice.. was the subject I was responding to and addressing in my post...but I noticed you removed the bold I placed on that part of the verse in your response...and then proceded to ignore my real point.
Okay, let's grant Man all the free will in the created universe.
I submit that you still cannot get around Absolute Predestination.
I'll refer you to a prior post of mine:
I do agree that God had forknowlege, but I do not believe that God chose to save who he wants and damns the rest. Forknowlege of events does not mean pre-destination.
It does, if God is in absolute control of the events, and those events pre-condition man's choices.
True, or False?
So was I, so what's the big deal? I left MENSA as being just for semi-functional naval-gazing dummies and joined the higher IQ and more selective Intertel. Left them too. BUT SO WHAT! Is that all you can bring to the table? The SAT scores required to get into Cal Tech or MIT (and elsewhere) means ALL their students automatically qualify for Mensa. The woods are full of bright people.
>a whole lot less confused about the real heritage of your evolutionary family tree.
If you want to become a whole lot less confused about your own heritage, please click on my Profile.
Yes, I do, but you have to accept it (Jn.1:12). We are born in Adam and we have to get into Christ (the 2nd Adam) this is what being 'born again'means. That is only done through faith (Eph.2:8)
By the way, there is not one verse in the Bible that says sin is "payed for."
When the Lord cried out 'it is finished' that is exactly what he was saying. In 1Cor:20 we are told we were brought with a price. In 1Pet.1:18-19 it tells us that we were not redeemed with corruptible things...but with the precious blood of Christ.
Sin is always described as something for which we are paid, not something we pay for. If all man's sin had been "paid for" and God still sent men to hell, he would be extracting the price twice. This is another Augustinian heresy, like the sinful nature nonsense.
No, regarding the sinful nature Augustine was right, Pelagius was wrong.
The one is sent to Hell for disbelief (Jn.16:9). At the judgement, he will stand and make his case before the one who died for him. Man's 'righteousness' will be weighed against the necessarity of having perfect righteousness (God's righteousness) and he will come up short. God is perfect, to live in his presence you have to be perfect also.There is only way to get that perfection, be covered in the Blood! (Rom.3:25)
All sins have been paid for, that is why Christ has the keys to hell and death. Man has to take the free gift or stand on his own merit. In that case, Isa 6:5 comes to mind 'Woe is me! for I am undone, because I am a man of unclean lips and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips, for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of Hosts'
Even so, come Lord Jesus Just please answer one question. Is it a sin to be tempted
Sorry, I did not answer this. No, it is not a sin to be tempted. It is a sin to say yes to the temptation, which we all do. So what is your point?
Even so, come Lord Jesus
Yes the Blood of Jesus was sufficient to pay the price of the sin of all mankind.....but we would agree that the atonement is limited to those that repent and turn from their sins..it is effective only for those that convert
Asking one into your heart is without effect unless you have repented first..God does not her the prayers of sinners..repentance MUST precede conversion..Repent and Believe
Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Luke 5:32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Luke 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
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Saying a "sinners prayer " avails not...so we see here that He does not desire the unrepentant to be saved..He will not save them.
So we need to ask why do men reject the gospel.? That is a question that remains unanswered here
Ephesians 2
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
It is the Grace of God that brings repentance..why to some and not others?
What?? Where do you get that from?? Man is still the same image as God originally created it to be. Man still looks like man did when Adam was created.
1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:
God is perfect in all ways..He is Holy and Just and Perfect.
Jesus said it best
John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
That is how we look to God Sueann..completely corrupt
Totally depraved
Unable to seek Him in our sin we think the pig pen is a "nice place"
Matthew 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
Romans 3
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
No Sueanne we are no longer in HIS image!
When you get right down to it, there can be no loving relationship between a man and God unless man has a free will to accept and return the love God shows towards that individual, and since God desires that none be lost, Salvation is a gift offered to all men.
The Lord Jesus Christ was a street preacher, John the Baptist was a 'street' preacher, Peter, John and Paul were street preachers, Wesley and Whitefield were 'street'(field) preachers, so I am for it! So what is the quiet, meek 'love' you are talking about?
Moreover, we are to contend for the faith holding fast the faithful word as he hath taught, that he may be able by sound docrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers(Tit.1:9)
Even so, come Lord Jesus
Allright-if you say so!
Even so, come Lord Jesus
I am not sure that is obvious..as the post above indicated most Chrisitans believe that they are still "like God" they fail to see the debth of the corruption brought on by the fall. Until you see that confession is superficial and it is not "repentance" a" turning "
And that is exactly the topic if this thread
We can not see or understand our sin unless God shows it to us..that is His act not ours
Back to Mathew 13
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Look how often Jesus speaks of the blind..Why?
Ephesians 4:18 Ephesians 4 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
So the question remains..how is it some are brought to repentance? Why do some "come " and not others" Is it becuase they are more worthy?
Denial of self. The doctrine of altruism. The belief in the supernatural...
His pluses - much of the Sermon on the Mount, his unrelenting love in his teachings...
How do you put together the incongruity of what must be to you, a terribly misguided nutcase who believed in the supernatural and who told other people that he came down from heaven, that he himself was Life and the only way to the Father, etc. with the sublime sanity and love in his teaching in the Sermon on the Mount? After all, a major aspect of his teaching was also his teaching about his own nature, was it not?
So what of the moral nature, not to mention the sanity, of a person telling other people that he would walk out from his grave, if he did not actually do so? How could such a person be considered godly, or even a good teacher, seeing as how he believed in the supernatural and all?
As Orthodox Presbyterian has pointed out,the atheist world view simply has no accounting for a central event in space/time history.
Cordially,
What were they doing Oh wise one?
One of these days I will count the times a Calvinist has given a straight answer and for that I will not have to even pull my hand out of my pocket!
Even so, come Lord Jesus, P.S. Have you figured out Eph.2:8 yet? Did you see the post that stated that the gift was the 'grace' and not the 'faith'-very impressive! Any response to it Jethro?
Besides, A) I have doubts about a lot of what was attributed to him vis-a-vis divinity claims and B) even if the "good stuff" in his teachings was an amalgamation of several writers' ideas, they are good ideas.
Why is a prayer irreverent?
Even so, come Lord Jesus
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