Posted on 01/20/2002 5:02:48 PM PST by CCWoody
We had no choice as to our sex ,or birth year or county or parents or their economic status..all of those things limited our choices..all of those things made us what and who we are.
Why do we accept the decisions of our parents which made us who we are (geographic location ,income and educational choices)..but deny that to God?
Look around you ..God has not denied life's choices to anyone..everyman does what he wants to do..
OK, lets look at your same scenario from a totally non-predestinarian perspective (just as doc did in #73).
Mr X. lives in the USA. He has Christian neighbors who love him enough to tell him about Jesus, invite him to church, etc. Mr. X. hears a really good preacher and says "Yep, that Jesus is for me, I think that I will choose to become one of His followers." He is saved as a result.
Mr Y. lives in the darkest jungle on earth. All of his neighbors are pagans. Nobody ever tells him about Jesus, nobody ever gives him the good news. As a result, he dies in his sins and goes to hell.
When Mr. Y. stands before God he says "How come Mr. X. got all the breaks? Why did he get a chance to be in heaven that I never received?
According to you, God will have to tell him "Hey, you just lost out on the crap-shoot of life?"
(Is this fair?)
X is going to think we co ordinated our answer Jerry :>)
I would like to take it one more level with you, Jerry .Lets say Mr. X goes to the church with his neighbor, and hears the awesome message..but said "naw,I like my life as it is .I don't need no Jesus" God is watching this denial and knows that if Mr. X heard the gospel one more time he will believe it, but god does not make that situation happen..He allows Mr.X to make that "free choice" without any interference from him..did god by His failure to bring that circumstance to pass "predestine Mr. X to hell??
That is always the tie breaker :>)
That is really a good question! The answer, of course, is no, but the significant question is "why?" Clearly "Y" was predestined to eternal death and "X" was predestined to eternal life. Thus, even if God revealed himself to "Y" he would not choose to fall down and worship God because God did not "choose" him. It seems that the Calvinists are satisfied that God chose "X" for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with "X" and he did not choose "Y" for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with "Y". If that is true, then is God's choice random? It would appear so. That was the point of 1528.
However, if God saw something in "X" or something in "Y" that prompted his choice, then it would appear that his choice could be objectively seen as "just." But if it has nothing to do with "X" or "Y" on an internal or spiritual level, then by what measure can we measure the justness of His decision?
Just asking.
Isn't it interesting tht both Woody and myself answered xzin's question in the affirmative, but you state that Calvinists must answer it in the negative. So much for granting your opponents the charity of understanding their position.
What you don't realize is the fact that God's election is a complete package, i.e. it consists of His gracious choice and the application of His grace to the sinner all the way to glorification. You assume that we must believe that it is limited to His choice, and does not consist of the entirety of His redemptive work.
If you consider that xzins formulation of 1528 proves that Calvinists are guilty of making God unfair, how can you avoid the same conclusion about Arminians as presented in 1583?
My point is that if "Y" is not "chosen" then no matter how much God reveals himself to that person, he will not respond to the Gospel message. Am I wrong?
Not an accurate reflection of my understanding. According to my understanding, Romans 2 the "law written on his heart" then becomes the guideline by which God judges.
If that poor miserable soul in the deepest darkest trenches of Africa will never have a chance to hear the Gospel, then was it God's perfect will that that person be born for the specific purpose of being an eternal bench warmer in hell?
If not, then what other purpose would God have in allowing him to be born?
Not in the least. What I am saying (in 1583) is that there are many to whom God has not revealed what He has done for mankind. Don't you agree that this is so?
"My point is that if "Y" is not "chosen" then no matter how much God reveals himself to that person, he will not respond to the Gospel message. Am I wrong?"
You are wrong is somehow thinking that God will reveal Himself, sufficient for salvation, to the one who has not been elected to salvation. OrthodoxPresbyterian (you may know him as Uriel1975) makes this quite clear with his posts on Matthew 11. God knows exactly how much grace we need to respond favorably to Him. In accordance to His elective will He exercises His grace to save. God will not grant grace sufficient for salvation to those who have not been elected to salvation.
Don't quit reading until you get into Romans Chapter Three. There are none who meet God's requirements, all the world stands guilty before God. (In fact, don't quit reading until you get past Romans 10, how will they hear without a preacher?)
Looks like you understand the message of Romans 9:
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory (Romans 9:22,23)
And just what would God see in "X"? What merit does "X" have over "Y"? And just how would this then not make God a respector of "X" based upon what He has seen in "X"?
BTW, to answer your question: There is no flesh justified in His sight. Against Him and Him only have we sinned and done evil in His sight--That He is just when He speaks, and blameless when He judges! (Psalm 51:4)
'nuff said!
Aside to xzins: How about this "draft" pick?
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