For Whom Did Christ Die? - Calvinism

The Spurgeon Archives ^ | Delivered on Lord's-Day Morning, September 6th, 1874 | C.H. Spurgeon

[RnMomof7]

What a bummer! God cannot think about a duck without some bird dropping from the sky. You'd think he could control whether it became reality or not.

No but if God knows you will not be saved and does nothing to intervene He has predestined you by His failure to act !

And BTW He knows my hair is getting thinner and my body is not :>(..Cause that uninvolved God knows how many hairs are on my head and cares!!

[RnMomof7]

This is like a WWF tag-team match. You, mom, ortho, jerry, and a whole host of others keep tapping each other to come into the ring. You even KNOW each other.

Trust me X I have not asked anyone to join in our discussion..there is no "tag team" ..If I need help I call Race ot Viva..now they would not be much help here :>)

[CCWoody]

Another question is "Had he already made up his mind to grant real free will before he looked ahead via his foreknowledge?" That makes all the difference in the answer to your issue.

Far be it for me to point out these 2 things:

1) Free will is entirely outside of the discussion of foreknowledge and predestination. This is why OP is willing to allow any amount of free will to man.
2) You would be ascribing to the idea that God has on His blinders during Creation: "... before he looked ahead..."

On the other side of the ring is.......me. (Unless you count the mormon guy/gal) I think you should loan me Mom and Ortho so they can practice arguing from my perspective. It'd be good for their education.

The title says it all: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Calvinism. So, I think that we have reasonably discussed these things. You may be suprised to know that I am the lone Calvinist in my church; although in fairness to my pastor, we are not far apart in doctrine.

And OP has yet to argue from the the Calvinist perspective. He is simply arguing from the Absolute Foreknowledge perspective.

And no, I don't count the mormon guy. He is rather intolerant of the fact that I regard him as unsaved and am not shy in pointing out the things I hate about mormonism.

[xzins]

No but if God knows you will not be saved and does nothing to intervene He has predestined you by His failure to act !

No, because if God had made the decision to grant real free will BEFORE he looked through time via His foreknowledge, then everyone that he saw damned and in hell was there because of their own choice.

It also makes sense out of why he would set in motion a plan that would see so much death and misery and tragedy. That group he foreknew was so precious that he decided the group of believers that he loved balanced out all the lostness that had to happen.

[Jerry_M]

Re. 1320.

WWF tag team?

I hope nobody "tags" me, due to the fact that I am still too busy to participate on FR with any more than a passing notice. However, keep me bumped, you never know when I am going to be standing ringside.

Now, with that said, why is it that xzins doesn't have any more partners? Could it be due to the fact that American conservatism (this is a conservative board, isn't it?) has its roots in Calvinism, thus more Calvinists will be available to "tag"?

As much as I would hope this is true, I sincerely doubt it. Why? Due to the fact that the majority of Americans, including those who self-identify as conservatives, haven't the foggiest notion of where they came from. The "government indoctrination centers" (commonly known as "Publik Skools") have done such a good job that even those who "feel" that conservatism is correct have no clue as to why conservatism is correct.

Enough of my ranting, please feel free to bump me, but don't look for much involvement this week.

[RnMomof7]

No, because if God had made the decision to grant real free will BEFORE he looked through time via His foreknowledge, then everyone that he saw damned and in hell was there because of their own choice.
It also makes sense out of why he would set in motion a plan that would see so much death and misery and tragedy. That group he foreknew was so precious that he decided the group of believers that he loved balanced out all the lostness that had to happen.

Can we see where we stand on beliefs?

Why does God save any?

Do you believe God saves us because He loves us?

[xzins]

2) You would be ascribing to the idea that God has on His blinders during Creation: "... before he looked ahead..."

I said that God decided to grant free will before he looked through time. That says nothing about God being blind, or putting on blinders, or not looking.

He could look individually at any soul who ever lived. If he decided before time that they would have free will, then when he looked at them, they would ALREADY be making free will decisions. Their eternal destination then, would be based on their own decisions.

[xzins]

2) You would be ascribing to the idea that God has on His blinders during Creation: "... before he looked ahead..."

I said that God decided to grant free will before he looked through time. That says nothing about God being blind, or putting on blinders, or not looking.

He could look individually at any soul who ever lived. If he decided before time that they would have free will, then when he looked at them, they would ALREADY be making free will decisions. Their eternal destination then, would be based on their own decisions.

[RnMomof7]

I have just thought about the fact that I did ask doc early on to check my posts for correct doctrine as I sometimes do..and I have always expected that if I make a mistake someone will jump in to correct it.I am after all a strange Wesleyan :>) I do not want to misrepresent Calvin or his teachings.

X These guys are my teachers ,and mentors..if you will..but there is no cabal here..(at least not one I am aware of!) I just wanted to be completely truthful

[xzins]

And one of the others was asked by Jerry to write a 6 page paper on the glory of God. And another (maybe the same) knew that Jerry was indisposed for the weekend.

All I'm asking is if I can draft you and Ortho and a player to be named later. (LOL)

[RnMomof7]

Some discussion on this at the neverending thread..here is a LINK

[RnMomof7]

I am not sure if that "paper " was to be directed to you or not..I read that on the thread the same as you. So it is safe for you to answer my questions:>)

[the_doc]

I think you should loan me Mom and Ortho so they can practice arguing from my perspective. It'd be good for their education.

On their behalf, I will thank you for the proposal, but they already know the basics of your position anyway. (OP has not always been an OrthodoxPresbyterian. And RnMomof7 believed essentially the way you do until very recently.)

[xzins]

Just thought we'd even up the teams. How about a draft pick to named later?

[RnMomof7]

Just thought we'd even up the teams. How about a draft pick to named later?

Well we will consider that once you are beat to a pulp LOL Still waiting to hear why you think God has chosen to save any of us??

[melsec]

I am after all a strange Wesleyan

You too. I am a Pentecostal Wesleyan - what a strange breed we are.

God Bless

Mel

[ShadowAce]

hmmm...don't give up too early. There are still some of us out here who believe in free will, and that God wants all of us to be saved. Of course, that won't happen, given the nature of free will, but the failing will be our own--not God's.

[RnMomof7]

On the other side of the ring is.......me. (Unless you count the mormon guy/gal) I think you should loan me Mom and Ortho so they can practice arguing from my perspective. It'd be good for their education. The title says it all: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Calvinism. So, I think that we have reasonably discussed these things. You may be suprised to know that I am the lone Calvinist in my church; although in fairness to my pastor, we are not far apart in doctrine.

Me too woody but that is hardly a surprise huh? *grin*

And OP has yet to argue from the the Calvinist perspective. He is simply arguing from the Absolute Foreknowledge perspective.
And no, I don't count the mormon guy. He is rather intolerant of the fact that I regard him as unsaved and am not shy in pointing out the things I hate about mormonism.

*grin* We never would have guessed...

[xzins]

Still waiting to hear why you think God has chosen to save any of us??

That's what I mean about the tag-teaming. You get one question from me. I get ten from all the c'vists out there....and some of them post entire documents.

I need a dose of omniscience just to remember who asked what and an omnipotence pill to do the reading and writing.

Why has God chosen to save any of us?

Luke 6:35 Luke 6 Luke 6:34-36 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.

Luke 11:42 Luke 11 Luke 11:41-43 "Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone.

John 3:16 John 3 John 3:15-17 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

1 John 4:8 1 John 4 1 John 4:7-9 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

[RnMomof7]

If our Salvation ,as you point out, is solely out of love for His creation..and He is not willing that any should perish..then why does He not choose to save all? Does he love some more than others?

He is God after all, and He would know how much grace each needed and the circumstances necessary for every man to seek Him. Why would He allow some ,that would seek Him with more of His grace perish?

Why did He even put the tree in the garden?