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To: kidd
My statement about freedom means that, in certain cases, if you grant certain freedoms to the few deviants in a society that you subsequently reduce freedom for all others in society who choose to live within the law.

This, again, makes no sense. If I am "living within the law", then that requires me to respect the rights of "deviants", whoever that may be. You have the right to not have force or fraud, or the threat thereof, initiated upon you. Allowing each individual this right violates nothing. Not killing or jailing someone for selling their body violates no one's rights for several reasons. First, you do not have the right to stop them. Secondly, YOU have the same right, whether YOU excercise it or not. Thirdly, "communities" or groups of people have no more rights than the individual. I know this is contrary to the way you want to get enough people to agree with you, so that it seems ok when the government forcibly harms people in a way you would never do as an individual.

If you allow, or even encourage, pan-handling for example (a non-violent activity), then the hundreds of people who are harrassed by each panhandler...

Well, it may be non-violent, but is this panhandler on private property? Then he/she is trespassing. Public property? Well, thats different(considering there is public property). Then, panhandling must be defined. Is it the simple asking for money, or is it constant begging? And whats the penalty? A fine? Jail? Death?

...have lost a degree of freedom that also translates into more tangable concepts such as lost property values, lost tax base, etc.

Im not sure where this comes from. You do not have a right to "property value", and you surely do not have a right to a "tax base". Taxing me for property I own makes the State the owner and me a tenant.

Your statement of "giving freedoms in a few instances" is based upon erronious, pre-conceived notions that "certain things effect everyone", when that is simply not true. The prostitute that lives in the house five doors down only effects me as much as I want her to. Again, you have to understand PRIVATE PROPERTY RIGHTS!! You control your body and your property - not anyone elses. When anyone comes on your property without your permission, they are initiating force by trespassing. They can't do that. It doesn't matter if its the avon lady, a starving old lady or a doped up idiot looking to steal your lawn mower. The reason for the trespass is not considered. Thats called "The equal and indiscrimitory application of laws protecting against the initiation of force or fraud". No victim and perp, then no crime. This eliminates human nature, favortism and bribary while protecting everyone's rights impartially. Then, we don't have relatives of "the important" not going to jail when caught with "drugs" while the poor guy who has no connections goes to jail. Neither person initiated force, so we would not have a judicial system where some are more equal than others.

253 posted on 01/15/2002 11:20:30 AM PST by FreeTally
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To: FreeTally
"Deviants" can destroy my ability to earn a living or raise a family in peace - without putting me at harm physically. If I owned a store that sold expensive clothes, and a drunk spent every hour of the day on the curb outside my store cursing the people that walked by - I will go out of business unless loitering laws are enforced. If I own a nice suburban home and I am trying to raise my kids and give them a place to play outside, and the woman five doors down is running a low class brothel - then my kids are at an elevated risk of injury from perverts - and the value of my house is unfairly reduced, unless prostitution laws are enforced. These deviants have taken away my freedoms, unless laws are enforced.

Panhandling on public property is simply a nuisance at best, and can be dangerous at worst. During the Dinkins era, it was quite common to be asked for money a dozen times an hour - as a tourist, I found that I didn't want to go bak to NYC because of this. And many were like me. This translates into lost tourism dollars for NYC and consequently lost jobs. NYC under Rudy has generally handled this well - those not threatening anyone and are not frequent panhandlers are asked to move along. Others can be sent to jail.

You stated: No victim and perp, then no crime. I guess there are different shades of gray on this. I say that being a victim goes beyond physical harm or property right violations. If someone's actions affect me financially, in any manner directly or indirectly, then a crime has been committed. If my comfort is reduced, then I have lost a degree of freedom, and a crime has been committed. If my neighbor likes to smoke dope, but keeps it to himself and is otherwise pleasant, I'm not about to turn him in. If there's a prostitute five doors down, in my opinion the potential for harm to my well being is great enough that I wouldn't think twice about turning her in. I will not have my freedom reduced for their sake.

285 posted on 01/15/2002 1:22:31 PM PST by kidd
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