Concealed carry not the answer [to retired Treasury Agent]

The Southtown Daily's Letters to the Editor ^ | Thursday, January 10, 2002 | Joseph A. De Leon, a retired U.S. Treasury agent

[dhuffman@awod.com]

Concealed carry not the answer

Thursday, January 10, 2002

On Jan. 1, your Public Forum published a letter titled, "Illinois needs concealed-carry law." I would like to respond to that letter because the last thing Illinois or any other state needs is a concealed-carry law.

I realize that some misguided states have enacted conceal-carry laws to satisfy a minority of their citizens. Those states have ignored the right of the rest of their citizens, and visitors to their states, to go about their daily lives without being exposed to the potential danger of bullets fired by people carrying legally concealed firearms.

While I have seen no statistics showing that people are being accidentally shot daily by indiscriminate shooting from people carrying legally concealed firearms, I sincerely doubt that accidental shootings will not occur in the future. One has only to review news reports of the many people killed and injured each year by hunters legally carrying and discharging firearms during the hunting seasons to know that an intended target is not always a proper target, and it is not always the only thing shot. Those wanting concealed-carry laws should be assured that, no matter how well intentioned their actions, they can do more harm than good.

In addition, if they harm some innocent person they will no doubt be sued for every cent they have, or will ever have.

Legal carry proponents contend that crime statistics show a drop in crime in states authorizing legal carry. However, FBI statistics show that crime is down across the country. If concealed carry had even a small effect on crime prevention, I doubt that concealed carry is the answer to further drops in the crime rate. I am a retired U.S. Treasury agent, and I can tell you unequivocally that no law enforcement officer wants to rely on guns in the hands of the general public as a means of enforcing the laws of this country.

In addition, no law enforcement officer, uniformed or in plain clothes, while in the performance of his or her duty, would be happy to be confronted with a situation where a civilian either draws a gun, or is found to be carrying one for any reason. Despite the civilian's good intentions, such people would be in substantial peril.

Proponents of concealed carry say that there is no record of abuse of the right to carry concealed firearms, that an armed society is a polite society. To this I say, "Just wait. It is just a matter of time."

Just because a state has allowed citizens to carry concealed weapons, it has not automatically endowed them with good sense, or complacent tempers.

Lastly, if an armed society is a polite society, Afghanistan must be a country of very polite people. Just the type of society we need. Not!

Joseph A. De Leon
Orland 'Park

[dasboot]

Oh yeah:

If you are going past a police car-stop and observe an officer being threatened with his own firearm or about to get his head squashed with a tire iron, please feel free to intervene and spray some lead at the bad guy until backup arrives. That cop might be me: 16 years and still going. I love gun nuts.

[Steve Van Doorn]

A 'firearm' is the greatest equalizer a woman can have - and this guy says no way should you carry it.

Well scr*w him ... Wow we agree on something _Jim. And I always thought you where a troll. hehe

[Jefferson Adams]

While I have seen no statistics showing that people are being accidentally shot daily by indiscriminate shooting from people carrying legally concealed firearms,

LOL - that's because the statistics show that concealed carry civilians have a far lower percentage of accidental shootings, etc., than cops do.

Of course, this guy being a former "treasury" agent, he's used to the idea that we commoners have no need or right to be able to protect ourselves and our families. Sheesh.

[Jefferson Adams]

You don't, we do. STFU.

Short and to the point. My compliments.

[fourdeuce82d]

spray some lead at the bad guy until backup arrives

officer, per section nine of the texas penal code, if I see you being threatened with your own gun, or about to get bashed with a tire iron, I will, to the very best of my ability:

direct aimed fire into the bad person's center of mass

until he is no longer a threat.

I don't intend to spray lead-I'm not a rambo wannabe. My job is to stop the threat, with whatever level of lethal force is required.

[chatham]

If my memory serves me right,I think it was the ATF an arm of the Treasury Dept who Killed the people at Ruby Ridge and I think the ATF were at the scene in Waco when they burned the adults and children..

Not Citizens with CCW

The Family protecting ELIAN in Florida could have used some weapons when they were attacked by, You Guessed it, The Atf from the treasury Dept..

The Treasury sure don't want decent citizens to have weapons it would impede their ATTACKS and would limit their Pensions...

[yarddog]

Not to defend the BAT fags but it was U.S. Marshalls and FBI who did the killing at Ruby Ridge, althouth the BAT fags were involved.

Elian was seized by INS, and the final burning at Waco was FBI, although again it was BATF who made the first disastrous assault.

Now that I think about it a pattern may be developing. The BATF foes in and fouls everything up then the FBI comes in and completes the job of killing everybody.

[Ditto]

If you care to educate the lame Treasury Agent, here are some stats compiled by his own employer.

Let’s look at two very comparable states --- Illinois and Pennsylvania. Both have roughly equal populations. Both have large urban centers and small rural communities. Both have a health mix of income levels, races and ethnic minorities, and industry vs farming. Geographically they are roughly the same size and have roughly the same climate. In all respects, the two states are very similar with one exception. Illinois does not have concealed carry, while Pennsylvania does and always has had a very liberal CCW policy.

Here are the statistics and summaries from the Uniform Crime Report

In the year 2000 Illinois had an estimated population of 12,419,293 which ranked the state 5th in population. Pennsylvania had an estimated population of 12,281,054 which ranked the state as 6th in population.

For that year the State of Illinois had a total Crime Index of 4,286.2 reported incidents per 100,000 people. This ranked the state as having the 20th highest total Crime Index. Pennsylvania had a total Crime Index of 2,995.3 reported incidents per 100,000 people. This ranked the state as having the 43rd highest total Crime Index.

For Violent Crime Illinois had a reported incident rate of 656.8 per 100,000 people. This ranked the state as having the 8th highest occurrence for Violent Crime among the states. Pennsylvania had a reported violent crime incident rate of 420.0 per 100,000 people. This ranked the state as having the 23rd highest occurrence for Violent Crime among the states.

For crimes against Property, Illinois had a reported incident rate of 3,629.4 per 100,000 people, which ranked as the state 27th highest. Pennsylvania had a reported property crime incident rate of 2,575.3 per 100,000 people, which ranked as the state 43rd highest.

In the year 2000 Illinois had 7.2 Murders per 100,000 people, ranking the state as having the 8th highest rate for Murder. Pennsylvania had 4.9 Murders per 100,000 people, ranking the state as having the 24th highest rate for Murder.

Illinois’s 32.9 reported Forced Rapes per 100,000 people, ranked the state 25th highest. Pennsylvania’s 26.4 reported Forced Rapes per 100,000 people, ranked the state 37th highest.

For Robbery, per 100,000 people, Illinois’s rate was 207.4 which ranked the state as having the 4th highest for Robbery. Pennsylvania’s rate was 147.8 which ranked the state as having the 13th highest for Robbery.

Illinois had 409.3 Aggravated Assaults for every 100,000 people, which indexed the state as having the 8th highest position for this crime among the states. Pennsylvania had 240.9 Aggravated Assaults for every 100,000 people, which indexed the state as having the 26th highest position for this crime among the states.

[Aric2000]

Don't you know that CCW has NOTHING to do with those statistics? /sarcasm off

[freedomcrusader]

Great post!!! Thanks for pulling these numbers together and putting them here. Someone call the editors at America's First Freedom, the NRA magazine...

[VermiciousKnid]

Well, ain't this just wonderful....Joe T-Man, himself appropriately armed, doesn't think the rest of us have the right to defend our OWN lives. Sweet.

Oh, and BTW, Joe T-Man...I am the wife of a policeman, and I can assure you that nowhere NEAR "all" law enforcement officials have your twisted view of the Second Amendment. In fact, my husband worries quite often because I am not permitted to arm myself -- or to properly defend our children. Now....I'll admit that most CHIEFS of police and most Police UNIONS do not support CCW, but if anyone actually thinks the FOP, etc. truly represent the rank and file...well, let's just say I have my doubts about that. It has not been my experience that they are in tandem with their membership.

Regards,

[dhuffman@awod.com]

I hope that you posted this good information to his criers. I maintain that editors have some duty to correct gross mis-apprenhensions of facts. I write all the editors that I can and I hope that you will too.

The conspiracy of ignorance masquerades as common sense.

[Badray]

Last year I was at a gun show and overheard a conversation with a BATF agent who sounded like he was very pro Second Amendment. After he was done talking to the first guy, I engaged him in conversation and tried to draw him out a little more and he really did seem to have his head on right. While we were talking, his partner came over and injected himself into our conversation and commented on Randy Weaver and the sawed off shotguns and handgrenades that he was making and asked what sporting events they were to be used for.

I leaned over the table and got into his face and told him that the 2nd Amendment had nothing to do with duck hunting and sporting events. It was designed to protect the citizens from people like him. As he started to respond, his partner (the first agent) told him to shut up or he would be arguing with two people.

The surprise to me was the first guy was the younger of the 2 agents. I would have thought the the older one would be the one with more respect for the Constitution. At least there are some guys out there that understand.

[MeneMeneTekelUpharsin]

I am a retired U.S. Treasury agent, and I can tell you unequivocally that no law enforcement officer wants to rely on guns in the hands of the general public as a means of enforcing the laws of this country.

This is why we do not trust the Federal Government. And, I am grateful this man is retired.

[Billthedrill]

While I have seen no statistics showing that people are being accidentally shot daily by indiscriminate shooting from people carrying legally concealed firearms, I sincerely doubt that accidental shootings will not occur in the future.

"While I admit I'm talking through my hat, I want you to believe me anyway." Does this guy realize how silly this sounds?

Do we write our laws around the paranoid imaginings of self-appointed "experts?" ...Oh, we do?

[Hal.009]

Thank you King George for your wonderful commentary as to why the citizens should not be armed.

Thanks, but no thanks.

[Ditto]

I maintain that editors have some duty to correct gross mis-apprenhensions of facts. I write all the editors that I can and I hope that you will too.

This is a local paper. I leave it to some Freeper from the Chicago area to 'correct' the editors at their home-town paper. If they start getting stuff from around the country they just discount it as spam from gun nuts. If its a mater of fact rebuttal from a local, they will need to pay more attention. That's the people that matter in their circulation.

[dasboot]

Thanks! Of course, you speak wisely and true: "spray lead" was a bad choice of expression, but I meant what you said.

And if you see my wife being beaten in the mall parking lot because the bad guy wants her car, and she can't get the keys fast enough, take yourself and your gat over there and say "STOP". If he doesn't, and tries to kill you, the witness, too, place some center-mass disciplined fire into him: aim true--I don't want to hear his defense attorney tell a jury how he is the product of a cruel society, while my wife is on a life-support machine in a hospital, and I'm faced with deciding when to pull the plug.

Furthermore, if you see my daughter being dragged into an alley by some loser she dated once, who's decided that if he can't have her, no one will, please intervene where twenty previous unarmed passers-by did not, and tell him to knock it off--or else.

If you live next to my mom and hear her cry for help at 3:00am--there's a burglar in there taking a piece of her before he cuts her throat as she lays in bed--strap on the 45 and help her.

And finally if you see a car driving with no lights, fearlessly flash your own to signal the other guy that he's in danger: it's I who absent-mindedly left the gas station without turning them on. Or it's some gang-bangers who have chosen you for death as an initiation rite for the newby. You have my blessing: make sure they can't do that again.

In sum, my respect and admiration to all those who take the responsibility to defend themselves and their neighbors.

[PLMerite]

I will bet this moron carries his gun regardless of what his mouth is saying.

Of course he does. He's better than the rest of us, don't you know? And if he doesn't, I look forward to a news story some day about him getting carjacked and beaten half to death for resisting.

[BikerTrash]

While I have seen no statistics showing that people are being accidentally shot daily by indiscriminate shooting from people carrying legally concealed firearms, I sincerely doubt that accidental shootings will not occur in the future.

Don't let facts get in your way now, ya hear?

Chump. Idiot.