Homosexual Ambassador causing problems.

http://www.frc.org/get/n02a004.cfm ^ | January 7, 2002 | By Fred Jackson and Rusty Pugh

[Looking for Diogenes]

You are correct that the first commandment is "I am the Lord your God, you shall have no other Gods before me." The establishment clause in no way takes away from this commandment. It was simply put in place to prevent what happened in England from happening here. People being the falliable creatures we are, misuse religion in the name of power given half the chance. This doesn't negate the fact that our founding principles were based on the religion of love.

Since the first amendment and first commandment are not included in that foundation, what founding principles are based on the 'religion of love?' (Did any of the founding father really call it that?)

I say cultural paganism [as opposed to paganism] because of the lifestyle. When speaking on general terms, Paganism includes the worship of gods and goddesses. I am not referring to that. I'm referring to the fundemental differences between cultural chirstianity and cultural paganism. Christianity is based on concrete moral truths. Cultural paganism is based on feel-good relativism. For example, we can use homosexuality. See post 181.

So is 'Cultural paganism' the same as 'relativism?' Or is it just the opposite of 'cultural Christianity.' What's the difference between cultural Christianity and Judeo Christianity? Are you making up these terms?

Indeed, many were fundamentalist protestant. This does not change the foundation, as the two greatest commandments are the basis of Judeo-Christianity--Love of God and love of neighbor.

If those are the foundations of this nation why didn't the founders indicate it? I can find no reference to those commandments anywhere in the Constitution.

[Looking for Diogenes]

I made a mistake last night--I was tired. Judaism began with Abraham, not Moses.

That's OK, I've read the book.

[JMJ333]

Since the first amendment and first commandment are not included in that foundation, what founding principles are based on the 'religion of love?' (Did any of the founding father really call it that?)

The term "religion of love" is mine. When I look at our constitution I see the principles set forth by a particular belief system. That belief system stemmed from Judeo-Christianity. You can also look at the paintings around Washington DC capitol to know what the founding fathers believed. Here is a painting in the capitol Rotunda depicting Washington being taken to heaven.

So is 'Cultural paganism' the same as 'relativism?' Or is it just the opposite of 'cultural Christianity.' What's the difference between cultural Christianity and Judeo Christianity? Are you making up these terms?

I am trying to distinguish between how Christians live and how cultural pagans live. You will not see [practicing] Christians promoting abortion, homosexuality, base sex, or things that stem from the devaluing of life. We believe that all of the above have led to the culture of death. We believe that base sex, whether homosexual or hetrosexual, is wrong because it reduces human beings to mere playthings and sex machines. It denegrates the sacredness of sex, marriage, family and human life, and transforms sex from the communion of life and love within the sacrament of matrimony to a simple tool of mastubatory and voyeuristic gratification. The cultural pagans [i.e the hollywood crowd and the militant homosexual community] believe just the opposite.

I'd say they were relativists because whenever you ask them about concrete moral truths they can't acknowledge them. They consider their sexual behavior to be subjective.

If those are the foundations of this nation why didn't the founders indicate it? I can find no reference to those commandments anywhere in the Constitution.

I look at how they framed our sacred documents in context of human rights and dignity. I look at how they lived their lives. Were they perfect? Nope. But they lived by a set of societal standards, which can be traced back to their religious beliefs.

[Looking for Diogenes]

You can also look at the paintings around Washington DC capitol to know what the founding fathers believed. Here is a painting in the capitol Rotunda depicting Washington being taken to heaven.

So the founding fathers believed that they would rise to heaven and become gods? So the founding fathers were instructed by the goddess Minerva? The revolution was funded with help from Mercury? Vulcan produced the cannons? And you are complaining about modern 'cultural paganism?' Try looking at your own example.

The Apotheosis of Washington in the eye of the Rotunda of the U.S. Capitol was painted in the true fresco technique by Constantino Brumidi in 1865. Brumidi (1805-1880) was born and trained in Rome and had painted in the Vatican and Roman palaces before emigrating to the United States in 1852. A master of creating the illusion of three-dimensional forms and figures on flat walls, Brumidi painted frescoes and murals throughout the Capitol from 1855 until his death.

The canopy fresco, his most ambitious work at the Capitol, was painted in eleven months at the end of the Civil War, soon after the new dome was completed, for $40,000. Suspended 180 feet above the Rotunda floor, it covers an area of 4,664 square feet. The figures, up to 15 feet tall, were painted to be intelligible from close up as well as from 180 feet below. Some of the groups and figures were inspired by classical and Renaissance images, especially by those of the Italian master Raphael.

Photographs of the inner dome and canopy (41k) and of the canopy fresco (42k) are available, as are photographs of individual groupings:

In the central group (37k) of the fresco, Brumidi depicted George Washington rising to the heavens in glory, flanked by female figures representing Liberty and Victory/Fame. A rainbow arches at his feet, and thirteen maidens symbolizing the original states flank the three central figures. (The word "apotheosis" in the title means literally the raising of a person to the rank of a god, or the glorification of a person as an ideal; George Washington was honored as a national icon in the nineteenth century.)

Six groups of figures line the perimeter of the canopy; the following list begins below the central group and proceeds clockwise:

War (38k), with Armed Freedom and the eagle defeating Tyranny and Kingly Power

Science (37k), with Minerva teaching Benjamin Franklin, Robert Fulton, and Samuel F.B. Morse

Marine (37k), with Neptune holding his trident and Venus holding the transatlantic cable, which was being laid at the time the fresco was painted

Commerce (38k), with Mercury handing a bag of money to Robert Morris, financier of the American Revolution

Mechanics (37k), with Vulcan at the anvil and forge, producing a cannon and a steam engine;

Agriculture (39k), with Ceres seated on the McCormick Reaper, accompanied by America in a red liberty cap and Flora picking flowers.

The Apotheosis of Washington

Thanks for starting my day off with a laugh.

[JMJ333]

So the founding fathers believed that they would rise to heaven and become gods? So the founding fathers were instructed by the goddess Minerva? The revolution was funded with help from Mercury? Vulcan produced the cannons? And you are complaining about modern 'cultural paganism?' Try looking at your own example.

No. I guess I was wrong about that painting. I am not ashamed fo being wrong sometimes. This doesn't negate the foundations of our culture which you won't address. If our culture and foundations wasn't based on Christianity, then what is it based upon? Where did they get their principles for the constitution?

[JMJ333]

The greeks and romans play a part of our political foundation, but the principles of our culture are based on Christianity, and it is incorprated into the words of our documents. Its hard for me to believe that you think Christianity plays no part in our foundation.

Do you think we should recognize homosexual marriage as equal to heterosexual marriage? Do you think we should normalize it as a healthy behavior? What do you base your beliefs on?

[Looking for Diogenes]

No. I guess I was wrong about that painting.

How do you know you are wrong?

If our culture and foundations wasn't based on Christianity, then what is it based upon? Where did they get their principles for the constitution?

The writings of Locke and Montesquieu are usually credited with inspiring much of the Constitution and the D. of I.

This doesn't negate the foundations of our culture which you won't address.

We were discussing the foundations of the nation, not the culture. I have challenged you several times to prove that this nation is founded on 'Judeo-Christianity' and so far you have provided me with proof that it is based on Roman mythology.

[JMJ333]

I outlined why our foundations and writings have their root in Judeo-Christian thought. If they were purely secular their would have been no bill of rights, no concern for life, no concern for anything except the state.

I believe the founding fathers were influenced by their religion. To say otherwise seems a stretch to me.

I thought it was a religious picture that dealt with Christianity. There are pictures in the rotunda depicting the founding fathers praying. I thought that it was one of those, but obviously I was wrong. My apologies.

[JMJ333]

To be honset, I've never had to actually defend the fact that our government was formed and incorporated around the basis of christian thought.

I've read the Federalist papaers and even there you an see the influence of christian philosophy and thought.

[Looking for Diogenes]

I've read the Federalist papaers and even there you an see the influence of christian philosophy and thought.

Certinaly most of the Founding Fathers were Christians, and certainly there was a Christian influence in their lives and deeds. But there is nothing in the Constitution or D. of I. to show that the nation was founded on 'Judeo-Christianity.' The mere fact that citizens are given certain rights has far more to do with the English Barons who cornered King John and forced him to sign the Magna Carta, then it does to Jesus talking with his disciples (render unto Caesar).

What is the relevance of this discussion to the question of a homosexual ambassador? If the Founding Fathers intended to create a theocracy where every citizen must follow God's laws (as interpreted by ?) then Biblical references to the evil of homosexuality would be sufficient to bar this man from serving his country.

However, the Founding Fathers did not form a theocracy, instead they formed one of the first genuinely non-religious governments in history. They never referred to Jesus Christ or any of his teachings in their debates or their founding documents. The nation they created is one which values the person for what he can contribute, regardless of his religion or his parentage. That philosophy is what made America great.

[Matthew James]

Nothing coming out of State would surprise me - nothing.

[B4Ranch]

Naw, they are in the same boat as X42's folks. They wear blinders and can't see what's wrong in ther own house. The part that's funny is they will deny it exists, just like the Rats do.

[B4Ranch]

Just don't turn your back on them and you'll be okay. My solution is to turn 'em all into steers.