The Church's Ranch

Florida Trend Magazine ^ | 8 January 2002 alert from friend | By Cynthia Barnett

[P-Marlowe]

I don't understand why some say that Mormans aren't Christian. Isn't the "official" name of their religion, "the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?

Lets say that I started my own church and taught that Jesus was Satan's literal brother, that God was once just a man like you or me on a distant planet and that eventually every good member of my church would someday become a god and have dominion over their own world just like God does over ours. And let's say I named my church the "Church of Jesus Christ for Ordinary People."

Would my church qualify as a "Christian" Church in your book?

[Enough_Deceit]

" I've always wondered. Do Jehovah's Witnesses go door-to-door in Utah? "

Yes, they do. I had the Jehovah's Witnesses come to my door when I lived in Provo, UT. Take care, and God bless.

[kezekiel]

Time magazine did an extensive article on the LDS church's wealth in 1997. The "wealth" is tied up in churches and temples mostly. I do know there are wealthy members (obviously), but I don't think the wealth is per-capita.

Mormons, unlike most Protestant denominations and Catholicism, practice personal accountability for the 10% tithe. Church members who want to keep their Temple Recommends must demonstrate faithful tithing.

Also, the Mormon Church plans and locates its neighborhood wards (churches) efficiently, not putting them too far apart or too close together. Finally, the church doesn't start paying salaries to its servants until they reach district-level authority. It would be as if all Protestant pastors, assistant pastors, church business managers, secretaries, janitors, musicians, techs, and teachers volunteered their time. Also, there are fewer churches with more members per square foot of church property compared to Protestant churches.

All told, the Mormons are just plain more efficient in their church operations, so I would expect they would get a lot more bang for their donated buck.

[Utah Girl]

Thanks for the much better explanation than I could give about the LDS church. I've travelled to many foreign countries and always try to get to church wherever I am. It is always amazing to me that the LDS church is pretty much the same no matter where the location.

[kezekiel]

I was wondering how long the "Mormons are not Christians" mantra would take to turn up on this thread...

Rather than issue fatwahs against other faiths, I always come back to the basics: the Bible + "something else" (traditions, new revelations, radical reinterpretations, etc.) is simply problematic. Mormons run the risk of having accepted "a gospel other than the one [Paul] preached," and therefore risk being "anathema."

I don't feel qualified to draw conclusions about what the fallout is for non-Biblical beliefs that may end up on top of Mere Christianity, but whatever they are, they can't be good, in this life or the next.

[Utah Girl]

I do appreciate your comments. I guess I get a little tired of being attacked for my faith, and when I try to defend it, there is no rational discussion. The "Mormons aren't Christians" idea has been discussed to death on the FR forum, so it does get tiring. Take care.

[pgkdan]

I'm largely ignorant about the Mormon Church, I've generally admired the Mormon people I've known because they've always seemed to be good and decent people. But there's one thing I've been told lately about the Mormaon faith that leaves me cold, and that is that upon death, a righteous Mormon becomes a god-like figure, in fact a god, over another planet in the universe and that this is the genesis of God Almighty. Is this truly what Mormonism teaches?

[womanvet]

Finally, the church doesn't start paying salaries to its servants until they reach district-level authority

Actually, in Amish fellowships and more conservative Mennonite churches, no pastors, bishops, board members, etc. are paid, and members do the cleaning as volunteers.

Also, among groups that have meeting houses (as opposed to meeting in members' homes), it is generally considered poor planning to build anything that requires a mortgage.

I do not know about the rather far-out teachings mentioned by one poster, but if tithing, and having an unpaid ministry, and owning one's own buildings is somehow unChristian, I guess we could start an Amish-bashing thread.

I should mention that I do have difficulty with the non-resistant teachings...so, go ahead, make my day.

[kezekiel]

I do not know about the rather far-out teachings mentioned by one poster, but if tithing, and having an unpaid ministry, and owning one's own buildings is somehow unChristian, I guess we could start an Amish-bashing thread.

I think you're defending what was never attacked. Except for their monitoring of tithing, which I think is a matter of accountability to God, not man, none of those things I would characterize as unChristian.

[JesusIsLord]

There are fundamental tenets of the Christian faith that Mormonism simply does not meet, therefore most Christians view many of its teachings, and more important, its treatment of Jesus Christ as heretical.

Consider this excerpt from the CHRISTIAN APOLOGETICS & RESEARCH MINISTRY web site:

"Christians are saved from their sins and judgment by putting their trust in Jesus for the forgiveness of their sins. But, faith is only as good as the object in which it is placed. The Mormon Jesus is not the one of the Bible, even though they call him Jesus, say he died for sins, and was born in Bethlehem. The Mormon Jesus does not exist. It is the nature of Jesus that is the issue. Jesus must be God in flesh, (second person of the Trinity) not "a" god in flesh who is the brother of the devil. He must be uncreated, not created. He must be the creator (Col. 1:16-17). This is who the true Jesus really is: God, creator, uncreated, not the brother of the devil. Mormon theology teaches that god used to be a man on another planet, that he became a god by following the laws and ordinances of that god on that world, and that he brought one of his wives to this world with whom he produces spirit children who then inhabit human bodies at birth...."

For the full text re: http://www.carm.org/lds/lds_christian.htm

[Campion]

Jesus must be God in flesh, (second person of the Trinity) not "a" god in flesh who is the brother of the devil. He must be uncreated, not created. He must be the creator (Col. 1:16-17).

That's bad, but the bigger theological problem (IMO) is the believe in "eternal progression". Since the LDS "Heavenly Father" was once a man, he is not God at all, as Christians, Jews, and Muslims would define the term. All three of those monotheistic faiths would insist that God is uncreated and eternally existent, absolute Being, whose existence neither depends nor has depended on anything else. The LDS "Heavenly Father" no more meets that definition than I do.

[tracer]

Actually, it's not that straightforward. The concepts of eternal progression, (eternal) life, learning, families, service and righteousness during the Millenium (at which time all will be resurrected and Satan will be bound), work on the other side of the veil and the final Judgement Day no doubt will come into play, but more about this remains to be revealed through a prophet or may not be known until we "get there."

[[[BTW, please allow me to interject the following: We believe that all who live, have lived, and are yet to be born are spirit children (i.e., sons and daughters) of our Father in Heaven and that Jesus Christ likewise is a Son as well (and therefore our elder brother), albeit the Only Begotten Son of God. We also believe Satan also was a spirit child of God who ultimately rebelled, fell, and was cast out. That makes him, by definition only, a brother of us all and of Jesus Christ, but such reference to the Adversary is by no means an honorific title. He is as far from us and the Savior and the will of our Heavely father as one could be and certainly is infinitely below the Savior and even us in favor and closeness to God the Father.

The Church is constantly bashed by those who wish it ill or who do not understand this eternal familial relationship and claim it to be evidence that we kindly regard or even revere Satan. Nothing could be further from the truth. We revere Jesus Christ as the Only Begotten Son of God and, to my knowledge, are the only Christian faith that also recognizes the Savior as Jehovah, even the God of the Old Testament who in fact created the earth as a physical venue for our mortal schooling and testing.]]] It is important to note that, as we believe, our Heavenly Father always will be God the Father to all of His children and will never become subordinate and redundant.

We as Church members, as do many others, have as our primary goal and purpose in life is to live worthily in obedience to our Heavenly Fathers plan and His commandments. We also believe that a complete knowledge of all things that are as yet unrevealed are "not essential to our salvation."

We do believe that our salvation and exaltation are made possible by the Atonement of our Savior, Jesus Christ and depends on our utilizing this great gift via righteous living, good works, appreciation, study of the Scriptures, worship, obedience, and repentance.

This very concept is humbling to me, and I am sure that I have demonstrated in this forum that I certainly am far less than perfect and must constantly repent (this includes recognition and sorrow for sins, confession before God and possibly Church leaders, abandonment of the sin in question, asking forgiveness of the Lord and the person(s) I have wronged, and restitution where appropriate and possible. When such restitution is not possible, one must depend on the Atonement to fill in the gap. That is the much of the beauty, wisdom, and the hope of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God.

Such, we believe, is our Heavenly Father's plan for us all, whether "Mormon" or not in this earthly life. A vital part of His Plan of Salvation is eternal progression, so you might say that we do not believe that one "is at rest" when he/she leaves this brief period of mortal probation! We believe that families are eternal (i.e., "forever") and that if we have live worthily we will be united forever with our forebearers, our posterity, and our beloved dead (friends and pets included, I hope).

Thanks for your honest question and lack of a contentious spirit. I hope that I have cleared up a few points for you and for others on this thread......

[tracer]

Thanks for your comments and the straightforward manner in which you presented them You may find my #32 to be of interest. All the best...

[JesusIsLord]

That's bad, but the bigger theological problem (IMO) is the believe in "eternal progression"....

I only have one comment....... PING!

[pgkdan]

Thanks for your honest question and lack of a contentious spirit. I hope that I have cleared up a few points for you and for others on this thread......

You're welcome...and thanks for answering so thoroughly. You have helped clear some things up. As for the lack of a contentious spirit...I'm Catholic and have been bashed more than enough on anti-Catholic threads...didn't want to do the same. Anyone who declares that Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God is ok in my book.

[Rubber Duckie]

Interesting. You pull out a non-Biblical book to define Christianity, then denounce the Mormons because they use one of their own books in addition to the Bible.

The Fundies which denounce Mormons, Catholics, JWs, Quakers and anyone else who doesn't meet their own narrowly-defined concept of God and Christ remind me of the "sit-on-your-ass" evangelicals who don't bother to vote for an otherwise qualified candidate because (take your pick) he hasn't outlawed abortion completely, is only 88% conservative, favors faith-based welfare or whatever.

Meanwhile the ignoramuses turn out 110% to vote for a Marxist Democrat . . . and society recedes further into the toilet.

It is time you start realizing those who share most of our values can hardly afford the luxury of fighting each other while those who share none or few of them remake society in its own third world image.

Every thread that mentions Mormons in whatever light can't handle even 20 posts before one of you narrow-minded bigots show up to spout your "not Christian" malarkey. I remember some of you yard-birds saying the same about Ronald Reagan, greatest president of the 20th century, because Nancy engaged in some of that astrology tarsus.

[Rubber Duckie]

Interesting to hear from somebody who has actually been there. You aren't the first one to tell me Mormons are cheapskates to work for (nice, but definitely tight-fisted). I've also had people tell me they are great people to hire because they are used to working for slave wages.

I once thought seriously about working in Utah because it has great values and a great climate. I had friends send me announcements-- $24K offers for people with advanced degrees and they get floods of applicants! Meanwhile, the housing is only slightly less expensive than California. Hell, I thought, if I want to work for slave wages, I'd stay in North Dakota where at least the cost of living is cheap . . . or if I want to pay for expensive housing, I'd work in California where at least the wages are decent. In time, I ended up doing both for awhile.

Now, I'm in position to hire Mormons-- preferably the kind straight out of Utah because the others are quicker to figure out what their real worth is.

[wild peach]

Tight fisted is right. I really cracked up at the part of the article that mentioned the cowboys having laptops. I can't remember anyone in the office having a laptop when I was there, much less one of the cowboys.

The really sad thing was these young families moving cross country (usually from out west) and once they got there and found out what the real deal was, couldn't afford to go back home. The even charged the missionaries rent and they were working for FREE. ha!

[Elsie]

The MORMONs better watch out!

The Feds are going to be after THEM again!!!

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/3109862/posts?page=1

[Elsie]

The "wealth" is tied up in churches and temples mostly. I do know there are wealthy members (obviously), but I don't think the wealth is per-capita.

Temples?

Only 15% or so of ALL Mormons are 'worthy' enough to even ENTER one of their 'temples' that THEIR tithes PAID for!