You CALL our claims "bankrupt" when we have shown that our position was AUGUSTINE'S. (Wll, I guess it beats facing reality.) And you WRITE OFF Augustine's position and ours as pagan fatalism even though we stand with Augustine in specifically affirming the doctrine of free will.
Pardon me, but I think you are in very, very bad shape, fellow.
Besides, this Calvinistic position is NOT "limited to the OP position." I am a Baptist, not an OP. The Southern Baptist Convention, the largest Protestant denomination in the world, was founded by men who held to my position.
In fact, all major Protestant denominations have their roots in an Augustinian/Lutheran/Calvinistic doctrine of predestination.
I have fully accomplished what I set out to accomplish.
More power to you.
In the end, my area of expertise is the Culture of Life, not deep Christian apologetics. I admit that OP has a much greater scholarship on Calvinistic predestination than I do.
I think OP would tell you that his debate with Squire was like shooting fish in a barrel. No RC really knows this topic worth beans.
You have failed to even admit that contraception is sinful and has always been seen so by Christianity. Therefore I have no compunction to debate you further.
Your claim is flatly false. I specifically said that some contraception is sinful. You are being overly simplistic and misstating my position. It suits you to do this, but you really need to be more honest. (A little less RC PRIDE would be in order.)
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From your #1403:
You contradict yourself. OP agrees that Onanism is sinful, from a biblical authority standpoint, and has explicitly stated that abortifacient contraceptives are gravely sinful.
But this happens to be my position. I indicated that I am opposed to onanism. The fact that the term is directly derived from the Bible is authority enough for me. (Did I really need to lay out everything for you?) And I explicitly stated that I vigorously oppose abortifacients used as contraceptives. I pointed out that Protestants are coming out against these.
You state repeatedly that I don't agree with your position on contraception. Its not me you disagree with. It is the continual teaching of all of Christianity.
Read what I said above. You haven't even understood what I definitely did say. I just don't agree with your sweeping oversimplifications about contraception. The fact is, I happen to hold to the same position as presented by OrthodoxPresbyterian. I think his complaints against your position are valid.
And I repeat, this disagreement with a continual teaching of all of Christianity is the fruit of the very Calvinistic ideas you want me to debate.
False. You are just trying to find an excuse not to get exposed as having pervasively rotten doctrine.
Why should I take your Calvinistic agenda seriously. It is simply your personal interpretation of scripture, your personal opinion.
Balderdash. If you weren't RC, you wouldn't say silly things like that. And Augustine agrees with us. If Augustine had been alive in the sixteenth century, he would have sided with the Reformers against the likes of you.
It is not infallible, and it is not necessarily even correct. OP has done a wonderful job of OP apologetics, and my respect for the OP position has been elevated.
You seem desperate to style this as the OP position, when, in fact, it is the historic PROTESTANT position.
I still think that, bottom line, it is pagan fatalism, it is not Augustinian but an error filled heresy of Augustinian predestination, and I'm really not that impressed with your Christian apologetics.
You just called Augustine a heretic. Period.
(You really don't get it, do you?)
I don't care if you are not impressed with my Christian apologetics. I have not even been trying hard. I sometimes think that OP doesn't mind debating a stump. But that's not my bag. We have different gifts [grin].
To me, you are represented by that litany of insults and lies that I posted earlier from your two posts that pulled me back into this thread, and will never be anything more than that.
Do you hate me because I tell you the truth? I honestly think you do.
No you have not. You have tried to appropriate Augustine as your trump card. He is not your trump card.
While Calvin's view of predestination might be a variation of Augustine's view, the two are not the same. Augustine did not believe in Calvin's understanding of the "perseverance of the saints," and neither did the broadly Augustinian tradition. That understanding was new with Calvin.
Besides the obvious...
Augustine is only one stellar Catholic saint in a sea of stellar Catholic saints. His is not the final word. He was not given authority by Christ. The Church was given authority by Christ. Augustine's thoughts contributed greatly to RCC salvation theology but does not define RCC salvation theology.
You are so fixated on Augustine because his is the only patristic writing that remotely reflects Calvin's. Calvin is correct in so far as he reflects Augustine. Augustine is correct so far as he reflects RCC doctrine. And again, Augustine did not believe in Calvin's understanding of the "perseverance of the saints." That understanding was new with Calvin.