Why Christians Don't Understand Non-Christians

ArGee | 1/3/01 | ArGee

[ArGee]

The ultimate contradiction of living by the scientific method only. How can you logically prove that anything non-verifiable exists within a system that requires verification?

Indeed. Or even worse, how can you prove that the scientific method provides valid proof via the scientific method. I remember an Isaac Asimov story called "The Feeling of Power." A man had re-discovered some of the axioms of mathematics in an age where men relied on computers for all math. He said, "3*7 is 21", "How do you know that?" he was asked. "Well, I've tried it on my calculator any number of times and it is always 21." "But does that mean it will always be 21?" "Well, my method works, so you'll just have to watch and see."

Shalom.

[ArGee]

That's dodge #2. All I'm asking is if you are in the camp of Christians who believe that blasphemers, adulterers, homosexuals, etc should be put to death based on Old Testament/biblical law.

No. That law was for the Theocracy of Israel. Since the Theocracy of Israel does not exist, that law can not be fulfilled. When the Theocracy of Israel is restored, if they want to ask me, I will take up the question with them.

I doubt there are any at the banquet who would challenge my answer. If there are, they are probably at their own table, far away from the adulterers and homosexuals.

Shalom.

[B4Ranch]

Excellent. Clearly written!

[ArGee]

Wow! Fantastic post. Thank you for sharing your heart with me. I wish I could meet with you face to face. If you live in central PA, FReepmail me.

You don't seem to understand that I was raised Christian and tried my best to believe in it for years. I really tried.

I was also raised Christian. But I did not come to the table until I was an adult. You are absolutely correct, you can't force yourself to believe. Even Paul didn't believe by making a decision to believe. He believed when He met Jesus. I'm going to presume you haven't met him.

When I was young I used to have horrible nightmares of going to hell because I just didn't believe in any of it. I saw no reason to.

I am sorry for your nightmares. I wish I could have talked with you then. I don't claim that I am super-Evangelist. I just wish I could have tried.

And as for your parable, I can't tell if "the banquet" is supposed to represent Christian fellowship, or a psychological state of well-being, or the second coming, or heaven.

It is fellowship with Jesus Himself.

But I can tell you this: if it represents Christian fellowship I've tried it and found Christians to be no better (or worse) friends than non-Christians.

Often they are worse. I will not claim to be better.

If it represents a psychological state of well-being, I must tell you that a dogma which says "believe in a story that makes no sense to you or be punished" never gave me an iota of peace.

I can imagine.

Only when I finally realized I was free to walk away and nothing would happen to me did I breathe easy for the first time in my life.

You are always free. It is for freedom that Christ has set you free. You can do whatever you want. But Jesus came to give you abundant life. You will never have it without Him.

What kind of person would I be if I didn't point out that you are trying to rook people into entering into a dogma that places your own mind as your own worst enemy?

There have been and will always be people who twist the message. That is why I point away from people and to Him who gave the message. It is His message. It is His invitation. You can know Him and bring all your cares to Him.

Come to the Table.

Shalom.

[ArGee]

Once, just once more, under the watchful eyes of the cameras of CNN would do just fine.

So, you're saying that only if G-d does something for you, that you can personally witness, will you believe in Him?

First, why do you put such a grave restriction on your knowledge. Is everything you know something you yourself have seen to be true with your own eyes? Have you been inside CERN to see the experiments that prove the quarks? Have you looked at the Hubble outputs that show the proofs of the age of the universe? Do you never trust an authority?

Second, who do you think you are that G-d will give you more than He has given millions. Millions have been satisfied with the evidence at hand. If you refuse to be satisfied, is G-d at fault or are you?

I don't mean that "who do you think you are" in a mean way, but you have to admit that it takes a certain amount of hubris to make demands of the creator of all that is, seen and unseen.

Shalom.

[jimt]

I'd stack my familiarity with the Bible against yours, any day of the week.

I wonder if he or she ever participated in a "Scripture chase"? Probably not.

[ArGee]

They may have exagerrated a bit about somethings like miracles, etc.

Can you prove that they did?

Shalom.

[Celtjew Libertarian]

It is my opinion that you can't make G-d do anything at all.

Except that, by your standard, faith in Jesus creates a change between God being willing and unwilling to grant you a place in heaven.

He doesn't need you. You will add nothing to Heaven that He can not provide without you.

I seriously wonder at that. That comes down to the question of why God would create a universe, complete with intelligent, God-like creatures in it. Obviously, we have something He desires, otherwise, he wouldn't have bothered.

Are you aware of what the Rabbis say about why G-d chose Israel?

God went to the Egyptians and said, "I have a Commandment for you?"

The Egyptians said, "What is it?"

"You shall have no other God before me."

"What? Are you kidding?" said the Egyptians. "We have our whole economy based on the gods. Isis, Horus, Osiris, Ra, Anubis -- do you know how many tomb-decorators would be out of work, if we had only one god above all?"

So God went to the Babylonians and said, "I have a Commandment for you."

"What is it?"

"How about, 'Thou Shalt not commit adultery'?"

"You have got to be joke," said the Babylonians. "This is a whole civilization that runs on ceremonial orgies. The gangbang of the new moon, the orgy of the full. And the king's birthday... You should see the King's birthday orgies."

So God went to the Hebrews and said, "I have a Commandment for you."

"How much does it cost?"

"Cost? It's free."

"Oh, good. In that case, we'll take ten."

[ArGee]

I don't understand what you mean by farther up...

I do lots of things that don't meet a personal need. Generally they involve helping others when I could be resting in my home. Since I believe my relationship with Christ is a gift, I don't believe that a balance of good works gets me into heaven, so I don't do nice things for people to meet a need. I do it because I love them.

By farther up, I mean you can always have a deeper relationship with G-d. Yours might be satisfying, but a deeper one would be more valuable - if not to you then to the world. If there is a deeper relationship with G-d than I have now, I want to find it. Not because of some need I have, but (as the mountain climber would say) because it's there.

Oh, and the reference to "farther up and further in" is my butchery from "The Last Battle" by C.S. Lewis.

Shalom.

[Celtjew Libertarian]

It would be a neat artwork though. A scene from Revelations, done, as in modern days, and off to the side, news-cameras and reporters. Done right, it would be a powerful statement.

[ArGee]

Sorry you're different.

By which you mean that your knowledge is complete and your reasoning processes are without error.

You sound like my 18-year-old son.

I remember a joke I used to tell a lot. Sure, I've made a mistake. I thought I was wrong once, but I turned out to be right.

Shalom.

[ArGee]

I think the main reason why Christians do not understand non-Christians is because Christians just can't accept the fact that we humans are not really very important, and that we just are born, live, die, and then?????

So, you think you are better than I am? You think that I am afraid to be unimportant where you're not? You think that the thing that might motivate you is the only thing that can motivate me?

Just so you'll know, the only reason I believe in Jesus is the same reason Paul the Apostle decided to believe in Him.

I met him.

Come to the Table.

Shalom.

[ArGee]

It doesn't sound credible to me because it sounds like you are trying too hard to either convince yourself, or others.

This is a tip for you. If you ever get married (or if you are married) repeat one phrase often to make sure your spouse knows you believe it and haven't changed your mind. Don't let your pride that you shouldn't have to repeat yourself get in the way of your spouse's desire to hear it. The phrase is:

I love you.

Shalom.

[ArGee]

It would be a neat artwork though. A scene from Revelations, done, as in modern days, and off to the side, news-cameras and reporters. Done right, it would be a powerful statement.

In fact, I heard a preacher one time talking about his seminary days in the 50s. He said that in those days everyone knew that much of Revelation was figurative and not literal. For example, how could the entire world look on the dead bodies of the two prophets in only three days. Since it was impossible to be literally true, it must have been figuratively true.

The preacher went on to say that now we have CNN (and Al-Jazeera) and it can be literally true. He then went on to point out many more ways in which recent history have made it possible for more of Revelation to be literally true when it was impossible before.

Is G-d amazing or what?

Shalom.

[P-Marlowe]

Moved on.

I don't think so. If you got over it and "moved on" then why are you here?

[Celtjew Libertarian]

That Hasidic rabbi I spent some time with, once was talking about how, when judgement day does come, the bones and bodies of the dead are supposed to all go to Jerusalem, through tunnels that will appear in the Earth.

Subways? Chunnell?

[ArGee]

I am amazed and humbled but I have finally responded to the last post that was to ArGee. I only wish that I hadn't had to start skipping the posts that weren't to me or All in order to get here. I will now tell you how I intend to change the story. When time permits I will post the changed story, but I will not necessarily reply to posts that don't say anything new.

First, there are some things that won't go into the story. I won't bother with the people who never came because true invitations come in the mail. Advertisements are not true invitations, therefore those people were never truly invited so they didn't come. I won't include those in the story, but this thread has shown me they exist.

Also, I won't bother with the people standing around all the billboards telling people, "You can't go to the banquet until you come to my place and wash your hands. I know the billboard doesn't say that but everyone knows you have to wash your hands before you eat. If you show up with dirty hands, they won't let you in. Come to my place first." I also won't include the people who either allow themselves to get sidetracked, or blame the rich man for turning away people whose hands aren't washed and stay home. This thread has also pointed out that those people exist, but I won't include them. I'm mainly excluding these people because I want to focus on the banquet.

I will change the scene at the door. There will be only one door into the banquet hall. When the rich man walks over, he will discover that the group has drawn their own door on the wall with chalk and are insisting that the door is just as valid as the real door and they want to go in through it. The conversation will play out pretty similarly as it is presented here, but with a little confusion as to how the people expect to go in through a door that was drawn in with chalk.

I will also add a scene where some people who have been in to the banquet are outside encouraging some others to go in and eat. They will be talking about how wonderful it is inside and encouraging the others to go in. The others will be asking, "How do I know there is a banquet? I haven't seen it with my own eyes. How can I be sure? Your report isn't the same as valid, verifiable evidence." The others will suggest that if they will only go inside they will see. But the agnostics will continue, "Hey, I'm open to going in if you can provide proof, but without proof why should I waste my time? Since nobody gives away that much free food, you're either brainwashed or there's some gimmick like Amway waiting for me in there that you aren't telling me about. You'll have to bring me proof if you want me to go inside." Eventually the group will break up.

I thank you all. This has been a rewarding and humbling experience. At the risk of turning off stuartcr I am going to repeat one thing.

The food is good. The wine is excellent. The fellowship is divine.

Come to the Table.

I love you all.

Shalom.

[Celtjew Libertarian]

Oh, and the reference to "farther up and further in" is my butchery from "The Last Battle" by C.S. Lewis.

IIRC, Lewis had Aslan say something like this in The Last Battle: "Oaths made in Tash's name and kept for the oaths sake I count as mine."

[LuvItOrLeaveIt]

To be honest with you, I have little respect for psychologists. They seem to be medical wannabes who couldn't handle the work it takes to become psychiatrists, but that's just my opinion.

[LuvItOrLeaveIt]

I don't think so. If you got over it and "moved on" then why are you here?

As I've said many times, demonstrating how the analogy originally presented is false where the faithless are concerned.