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All that said, when Calvin examines the origin of the fall, he most definitely does go past Augustine. Even when Augustine issued a retraction concerning some of his earlier writings, in that retraction he still maintained that Adam fell through his free choice. Calvin, though, states the fall was planned by God. To make such an answer concerning the fall and thus the origins of evil is fraught with peril and no less a Calvinist than Jonathon Edwards had great difficulty resolving this issue.

Very shrewd observations. This is the point in Calvin where I don't follow the path of his logic to its destination.

It seems to me that in such discussion, it's very easy to move beyond the statements of scripture to particulars of logic based on the use of literal readings of particular passages. It is no doubt very tempting to any theologian given the nature of the work and the type of individual who is drawn to it. Yet, their work involves reading the Word and producing more words, relying upon the flawed reasoning of man to thereby describe the most intimate nature of God's character and motives.

And yet, Augustine's understanding is not that of the full nature of God. Nor is Luther's or Calvin's. These matters are not fully given to the understanding of man from the scripture. The conclusions are not plainly spoken in scripture. And they are not the central message of Christian belief, a fact overlooked by their most devoted supporters and opponents.

The real practical impact of these human ideas of predestination is that they go so far as to cause people to believe that God is the author of all evil, that God desired from the very beginning to damn the vast majority of all mankind. The rejection of this general predestinarian conclusion is that which causes Pelagianism and Arminianism whose theologians then are forced to elevate the will of man and his ability to "choose" faith and salvation as the central point of God's interest in man.

To fully believe these theories and apply them to our fellow-men is to change the Good News of the Gospel we are to present to all men into the Bad News of the New Covenant that the vast majority of mankind are damned because it pleased God to do so from the very beginning and was part of His central purpose.

Predestination is true. God is sovereign in all things. But we are not given to know these things quite so precisely as Augustine, Luther, and Calvin have written. The actions and motives of God as described in scripture do not fully inform us as to His motives and ultimate purpose with men in general or with the eternal fate of any particular man. Clearly, there are matters which He does not wish us to know or which He knew we would misuse if He explained them fully to us. He gives us assurance of His sovereignty in all things in scripture but He does not grant us full knowledge of His purpose, His methods, or His criterian in predestining men toward Him.

And yet, Augustine's understanding is not that of the full nature of God. Nor is Luther's or Calvin's. These matters are not fully given to the understanding of man from the scripture. The conclusions are not plainly spoken in scripture. And they are not the central message of Christian belief, a fact overlooked by their most devoted supporters and opponents.

This really surprises me GW. I know the high regard you have for Calvin and his work..this sounds like you are dismissing it out of hand????

I do not think that Augustine, Calvin,or Luther expected or wanted to be place on the same level as inherent Scripture. What they do offer is what the best minds and years of scholarship . We agree their work,like that of all church fathers is always a personal insight into the word of God.(like all commentaries or study bibles.) The difference with Calvin and Luther is the extent of their work and the impact they had on the religious world, and how men saw their relationship to God throught their work! .That, as I know you would agree ,came out of the level of their prayer, scholarship and dedication. Both men had a willingness to stand on their work in the face of an angry Rome.

Predestination may not be the central theme of scripture but,it was one of the central themes in the reformation, so not easily dismissed out of hand. Without the work and study and willingness to suffer persecution in HIS name we would all be going to mass on Sunday!