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To: Sabertooth;wooly-mammoth;Askel5;CommiesOut
That's an area I find too many "anti-zionists" and "America-firsters" to be rather cavalier about. When the effects of their policies would start to work in the favor of the anti-semitic "Palestinians," then those who advocate those policies are once again dancing close to the line of anti-semitism themselves, even if they don't mean to cross it.

That is the essence of dennisw's position. The logical problem with the policy is that it exculpates Israel and Zionists for just about any aggresively racist act.

There are those of us who see this "dance of the straw men" as destructive to both extremes. I originally began my oblique interest in the topic of Zionism out of the need to understand better my Jewish friends (all are borderline communists) and to try to understand what appears to be such terribly self-destructive behavior that organizes so much of the world into hating them.

I note with some interest in wooly-mammoth's extensive (and informative, thank you) postings of the nature of the ancient scism within Judaic scholarship. Is this global "manifest destiny," centered upon a couple acres of rock in Jerusalem, an artifact of the Babylonian Pharisees or is it some other faction? I am reminded of the extensive discussion in Deuteronomy of "the place I shall appoint."

Unlike Askel therefore (correct me if I am wrong), I do see this consolidation of Jewish financial and political power and its focus upon the Temple as part of God's plan (George Soros, UN Theosophy, and all), not that all the actors plan it to be so, or would wilfully act according to His Law for that matter, but that it is in fact happening despite the best efforts of protagonists and antagonists alike. Still, I see no point in resignation to "Thy will be done on earth," and letting these clown do whatever they want, though that appears to be very popular among many Christians here at FR. Instead, I see the continuing remand to perform my part in the play according to His Commandments, come what may. I do see a real need here to understand better the origins, distinctions, and strategies among Zionist and anti-Zionist Jewry. I have a translation of the Kaballa, but I haven't read it yet. Thank you for injecting some civility into this ugly morass. I have avoided this thread for obvious reasons.

765 posted on 12/29/2001 11:12:43 AM PST by Carry_Okie
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To: Carry_Okie; sabertooth
When the effects of their policies would start to work in the favor of the anti-semitic "Palestinians,

Yes, I think this is an inadvertent misstatement. I think what was meant were policies that in the mind of the advocate worked in favor of Palestinians while at the same time would most probably end in the death or expulsion of Jews from the region. Indeed, one could argue that the current policies of Arafat and the Palestinians work against both them and Israel. One could argue that the Palestinians are indulging in self destructive behavior. One could argue that the Palestinians accepting a Barak type deal would achieve the opposite effect.

In any event, the point is that if one advocates policies that have as a reasonable end result the destruction of Israel, out of desire or indifference, while that might not be anti-semitism per se, it certainly represents the practical functional equivalent. It is also in my mind, beyond ethnicity, immoral and unethical, and perhaps that is the ultimate issue: not so much one of anti-semitism but of immorality. I would have the same views if any other people on this planet were similarly at risk.

773 posted on 12/29/2001 11:30:46 AM PST by Torie
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To: Carry_Okie
Please. If you have what you claim to have, send it out into the world forthwith, for 'tis truly a miracle. Do you have any idea what the study of Kaballah truly is?
Kaballah is an unfinished work still in progress. What you might get from bits and pieces are already being changed as days go by.

Into this mysterious universe we are born, with no apparent set of instructions, no maps or equations, no signs or guideposts, nothing but our equally unfathomable instincts, intuitions, and reasoning abilities to tell us where we came from, why we are here, and what we are supposed to do. What we do possess - perhaps it the key to our survival as a species - is an almost unquenchable need to know. A human being comes into this world with a passionate sense of wonder and inquisitiveness and an equally powerful need for self expression. Yet, somehow these seemingly indelible primal imperatives become eroded, as a rule, after only a few years exposure to modern reality and contemporary educational methods.

And so the project continues and will continue until there is nothing left to ask. Since that is pretty much impossible, KNOWING Kaballah is pretty much impossible. If you consider that the little that is known has already been discarded, you can find some basic glossaries on just about any video game in existence. Not to mention *Black Magic* wizard wannabes.

786 posted on 12/29/2001 11:45:47 AM PST by NixNatAVanG InDaBurgh
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To: Carry_Okie
Unlike Askel therefore (correct me if I am wrong), I do see this consolidation of Jewish financial and political power and its focus upon the Temple as part of God's plan

Without getting into the effect of the observer on the observed and other bits of quantum physics that might better explain the intersection time and eternity ...

I am not a Calvinist, pagan or heretic and do not categorize "evil", evil men, or evil intent as "God's Will".

That said, I think it's entirely possible our creator has a fairly good idea how things will turn out, what choices we will make ... even if this clarity on his part is due solely to his knowing "in advance" our potential for choosing His or our own will and what acts we shall commit as a consequence of that choice.

The operation of prophecy has its place, then, despite the absolute truth that is our being possessed of free will.

Cars have windshields as well as rearview mirrors. So do civilizations. However, our rearward, Epimethean vision is far stronger than our forward, Promethean one. We have more archivists than prophets. For archivists see through a microscope, sharply, but prophets see through a glass, darkly.

Yet even the little the prophets see is of great importance to us. It is like the little but all-important view that a driver sees when peering through a tiny hole of light in a muddy windshield when the car is accelerating through thick fog over rocks and between abysses-in other words, when the situation is like that of our civilization.

The gift of prophecy, confined to a small number in Old Testament times, was offered to all Christians once the Holy Spirit, the One who makes and inspires prophets, was spread through the Church and into the world in the New Covenant. It is possible therefore without absurdity to call C. S. Lewis a prophet. Let us consult the writings of this most popular Christian author of our age with that hope in mind and look for some Lewis-light on our civilizational teeter, we who stand poised at the brink of spiritual suicide.

How to Save Western Civilization (Part I: A Philosphy of History

I believe it's a mistake to believe that it is for men to bring about -- by whatever means necessary -- certain prophecies. It seems altogether possible that this is precisely the abuse of free will that, while appearing to conform to what they assume is "God's Will" for its having been prophesied by holy men, actually is a failure of obedience to God's will.

I do not believe it can possibly be true that terrorists and globalists should establish the true Zion.

Rather, in all my arguments, I trust it's clear that I believe all men -- regardless the avenue by which they approach God, his truth and his justice (as long as they are obedient and faithful to what they know to be true) have a certain obligation to abide by God's law as written in the heart of every man.

Clearly, the sentiments, actions, rationalization, intent and hate exhibited in such abundance on this thread and others suggests that some -- Jew, Christian, "atheist", what have you -- are not following their consciences.

The fact the forked tongue our own nation speaks of "faith-based partnerships" and "Holy War" ... not to mention washes down with a spoonful of Scripture federal funding for research on "Excess" human lives ... ought to be a wake-up call that things aren't what they seem.

(The United States is just slow -- about a century or so -- to the game of concertedly manipulating the faithful on religious terms.)

I see no reason why we should recognize as just the establishment and sustaining of a nation confected primarily by militant atheists and globalists who capitalized -- and still capitalize -- on a Divine Promise to the Jews. I think the Jews -- particularly the memory of those who suffered and died under National Socialist and Communist atrocities -- are being used to great effect by the pragmatists who seem to have won us over to their particular bit of alchemy where "God's Will" is concerned.

823 posted on 12/29/2001 2:22:17 PM PST by Askel5
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