Posted on 12/21/2001 11:34:36 AM PST by onedoug
This scripture is not in isolation..there are conditions for God to hear prayer. some would argue that in fact in Chapter one the call on Jeremiah was made clear
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Some would argue that was set aside by God from before his birth.
But there is added a promise, that God would hear them. It may however appear, that God promised conversion even in the first clause; and, no doubt, prayer is the fruit of repentance, for it proceeds from faith; and repentance is the gift of God. And further, we cannot call on God rightly and sincerely except by the guidance and teaching of the Holy Spirit; for he it is who not only dictates our words, but also creates groanings in our hearts. And thus Augustin, writing against the Pelagians, understands the passage, and proves that it is not in the power of man either to convert himself or to pray; "for God," he says, "would in vain promise what is in the power of man to do; and this is the promise, ye shall pray; it then follows, that we do not pray through the impulse of our own flesh, but when the Holy Spirit directs our hearts.(Calvin commentary)
This has been a point of contention with some on this board (not me)... who say women are not to speak in the church at... or teach anyone. There were accusations about JM being a shorn women and teaching men...therefore unfit as a Christian.
I'm not sure how many posts you read before jumping in here... but for the sake of "getting the whole picture"... I'd suggest going back a few pages and reading why we're at this particular point.. in this thread. *chuckle* It's very interesting. :)
Mine either *grin*I have to say you threw me with that..I picked up my bible and looked and at first saw the same verse I thought my bible site had made an error..so I had to go check..Then I realized that I had thought 19 was 29 because I hadn't "looked " correctly
We agree..someone I know used this phrase.." They are so heavenly minded they are no earthly good"
I went to a full gospel church that had a strong "faith " message for many years...finally I had to get out because the gospel was never preached. All we heard were snippets from scripture that God wanted us all rich and healthy and powerful .....funny he didn't want any of that for His own Son huh?
One Preacher stood up and showed us his hands..rings on every finger.."this " he said "is how I know God loves me"
Pathetic..I left shortly after.
In all the years I went there I never heard one sermon on repentance or holiness..it was all self centered..me me me
We need spiritual balance...God does hear and answer the prayers of His people..but in the end he is God and He makes the final call..
It seems to me there are too many around that think God should conform His will to theirs instead of the other way around
I ignored this thread for a long time,because I knew my words would not be popular..
Nothing personal to you,we do not even know each other,so I would never mean to imply my thoughts were a judgment of anyone that posts here....they are just general thoughts..this was just a rant left over from my years in that church.
The preacher long lost or forgot the message of salvation that's for certain. I didn't mean to jump you earlier some post are hard for me to read. This post I agree with you 100%. If there isn't balance in the messages being preached you have a one thought congergation. Saved yes if they answer the call of salvation but missing far more spiritual wise that is aviable. They don't grow.
The truth is hopefully no one can look back at their beliefs let's say of 20 years ago and see they have not somewhat changed. If you study and seek they have too. I've read some preachers admit they look back at their sermons of their beginning and say gosh did I say that? That was true as well with the ones who penned the scriptures. A objective look at their lives and the changes say as much. You pray, study, read, and learn. In the end you realize you can still no where comprehend the full extent of the Greatness, Grace, and Mercy of GOD.
Grace through Faith becomes the bridge to except without understanding fully GODs full plan. I don't have to understand how the earth was formed. I have to believe in the one who formed it and his Son. But then again looking for things like the Red Sea crossing got me involved looking deeper into scriptures. This thread was a good shot in the arm for me as well. Got some cobwebs knocked out and thoughts to stiring.
Maturing in the Lord--if only some who have learned more and grown in the Word would apply what they've learned to themselves instead of using it to point fingers at others. I know too many Christians who think so highly of themselves and are so critical and judgmental of other Christians. These kinds of Christians (Pharisees, what I'd call them) turn off the unchurched, because this behavior is so transparent to all but the Pharisee.
My father is one and I have made it my attempt not to be like him; my friends and others have seen how he and my half sister (who is just like him) has treated me; their words: "they are mean to you, why do you even talk to them anymore? And they're supposed to be Christians?" My oldest daughter had a panic attack a few months ago when humiliated in a parking lot mall by my other half sister, who felt compelled to yell at her and chastise her while my daughter was surrounded by the rest of the family (my other half sister, half brother and step mother). At first I thought my daughter was having an allergy or sinus attack, she couldn't breathe, her heart was pounding, her face turned white, hands blue---I made her sit down, put her head between her legs---finally she calmed down. After bringing her to the doctor the next day, I had a little chat, one on one with my half sister, asking her never to speak in that manner to my daughter again; she may speak her mind but in a calm manner, without the yelling and humiliation. She got defensive and told me it's not her fault my daughter's having panic attacks. This is the ridiculousness of the Pharisees--they never do anything wrong and must never be criticized.
Jesus already had it all...didn't He? One thing that isn't expounded upon in scripture...is where He got His seamless robe...(obviously quite expensive since the Roman soldiers cast lots for it) and the fact that He had a treasurer (Judas) What do you need a treasurer/accountant for... if you have no money? Jesus, God come in the flesh... could've have turned stones into bread.... commanded fish into the nets of the fishermen.... got money from a fish's mouth to pay taxes. He said He could have called on the Father to have 12 legions of angels at His disposal...See what I mean?
We need spiritual balance...God does hear and answer the prayers of His people..but in the end he is God and He makes the final call..
I agree with you. Unfortunately... some of the faith based ministries are built on greed... and it sours the taste in the mouths of Christians for even the good ones who teach repentence, well-founded scripture and obedience to the Word. Believe me... I had to look for a long time before I found one with "balance". I guess my point is here.... is not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. People do misuse the scripture for their own means sometimes.....but it doesn't make God's Word any less true or valid. We have the Holy Spirit to guide us and give us discernment...if we ask Him.
this was just a rant left over from my years in that church.
I understand completely. I had a Christian bookstore some years back. A woman from that "metaphysical" type church I'd belonged to before getting saved... came into the store and wanted me to put her church's promotional material on my counter for people to pick up and read. I totally went off on the lady. Sigh. I had to repent of this TOTALLY unChrist-like behavior. It was out of character for me... and I shocked myself. A "no thank-you we don't do that" would've sufficed. *chuckle* I just pray the Lord sent her to someone else... less offended by their cult... to minister to her and possibly lead her to the Truth.
As I sat in some of those services I wondered how a poor woman or a sick person would feel..would not having a ring on every finger mean God did not love them?
Paul had a thorn in his side..disciples were killed for His name sake. Being a Christian isn't always having your way made easy ..
Don't lay guilt on yourself for that.Remember the only time Jesus became angry was over His Father..You were defending the Father..righteous anger isn't sin..:>) You may well have gotten her attention (I will bet on that:>)
Christ said as much, something like because we are Christians, we will be persecuted moreso (I don't have my Bible here at my desk right now.)
Jeremiah was "made a prophet to the nations" before he was born. To that extent, I agree. Jeremiah could have disobeyed and turned from this calling. Many men have done so. They have forsaken the call placed upon them.
I once had a dear friend in a Calvanistic church. Her daughter became ill with leukemia. She was told that this illness was in line with God's will for that child's life. That is utterly FALSE and straight from the pits of hell. How proud these elders must have been to presume to know God's will for her. After much grieving and questioning as to why her daughter's illness was God's will, she met a member of a "faith" ministry. The meeting was purely "accidental" if one could choose to believe that. This lady loved God with all of her heart and served him faithfully. However, she began to seek Him more diligently than she had ever sought him before. At first, it was out of desperation.
As she buried herself in the word and in prayer, she became aware of the doctrinal errors in her church. She became empowered with faith. She grew stronger while her daughter grew weaker. She called the newfound friend and asked to attend church with his family. At first, she found that she was unaccustomed to and slightly uncomfortable in this setting. But she recognized that the Spirit of God was at work in that place so she stayed there and began learning about faith and the application of faith in her life.
About two months after attending the new church her daughter was admitted into the hospital and given just a short time to live. There was no medical hope for this child. Everything had failed and nothing else was available. Hospice was called in. One night as her child lay comatose ( determined by a physician in writing )a Hospice worker came into the room. This worker offered to pray with her. The mother agreed. The Hospice worker asked questions about her faith and they spoke for a while.Later that night ( around 11:30 pm , I believe ) the worker drove 30 minutes back to the hospital. See, a burden for that child had been placed upon her own heart after that earlier visit. The Hospice worker came into the room and ministered to the woman. They laid hands on the child and prayed for her healing. Nothing happened immediately but the young mother would not let go of the belief that God would heal her child. Two days later the child woke up from her coma. Three days after that she went home astounding the Dr's as their was not a sign of leukemia in her body.
Today that child is 11 years old. This happened 4 years ago. You can believe it or not for God is witness of it as well as the medical staff at Moore Regional Hospital. Apparently, it wasn't God's will for this child to to be sick and die as her church elders had told her. Thank Him that she got out of that false doctrine and into a body where God's power was preached and evidenced. She could have remained in the complacency of her "safe" doctrine accepting that God's will was being done and let the child's death come and go. Thankfully she didn't.
It is not God's will that any man perish spiritually , yet we know some will go to hell because of CHOOSING to reject Him or to turn away from Him. I don't think that you have succeeded in impressing upon me that God forces His will upon anyone.
This is such a fine line ya know? Sometimes I have to stop and think what I was like as a babe.
I come from a more reformed position..so I believe it is Gods job to draw folks not mine (that is good because I am all too human:>)
Sometimes telling others they are judgemental is judgemental....we all make judgements and we are supposed to ..Jesus told us to be fruit inspectors. I love to pick the minds of other Christians. I love to hear about their faith .I ask lots of questions to prompt thought and discussion..
There are some very smart freepers here..we all do not agree doctrinally but we have lots to talk about....(that is for sure:>)
This is such a fine line ya know? Sometimes I have to stop and think what I was like as a babe.
I come from a more reformed position..so I believe it is Gods job to draw folks not mine (that is good because I am all too human:>)
Sometimes telling others they are judgemental is judgemental....we all make judgements and we are supposed to ..Jesus told us to be fruit inspectors. I love to pick the minds of other Christians. I love to hear about their faith .I ask lots of questions to prompt thought and discussion..
There are some very smart freepers here..we all do not agree doctrinally but we have lots to talk about....(that is for sure:>)
THAT is SAD. That promotes self-condemnation. It reminds me of my 3yr old grandson when he had to have an operation. When he woke up in recovery... he was in alot of pain. Through his sobs... he looked at me and asked..."Nana... did I do something bad?" I spent the next half hour... reassuring him thru my own tears....that he was a good boy and no one was mad at him.
People don't understand the hurt that just a few ill-timed words or actions can cause in someone's life. (and why I was so ashamed of my response to the lady in my bookstore) I sure hope someone takes that minister aside and sets him straight.
I don't have a problem with questions being asked, fruit being picked, using discernment, etc., which of course, is what we must do and should do. My problem is with Christians who aren't babes, the ones I have referred to most definitely are not, but they have hard hearts, treat others unkindly, are critical and harsh. In an earlier post I had listed what the fruits of the spirit are, and on another post, if we have the faith of a mountain but do not have love, we are nothing. This is what the Pharisees are guilty of: head knowledge but not a heart for God's people.
There is certainly truth in that.
John 6
43But Jesus replied, "Don't complain about what I said.
44For people can't come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them from the dead.
45As it is written in the Scriptures, `They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who hears and learns from the Father comes to me.
"Acts 18:26 Acts 18 Acts 18:25-27 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly."
Now, about your comment above ( grin )
I believe totally the opposite. I believe that it is God's spirit that will minister to others through our actions and words. I don't mean to imply or infer that we are more important or persuasive in drawing man than He is. I feel that as laborers we plant the seeds and He waters. I once heard a minister say that, for some, the only Jesus they will ever see is the one we present. My what a poor job we have done.
Could have been emotion that triggered it or the very yelling itself. Just curious any history of sinus allergies, ear infections, thought to be ADD ADHD ect? If so it could be a forerunner to more of the same for her. I've been known to loose my temper in a Walmart after the third or forth page for a member of management and yell will you please turn that thing down. Unfortunately out of frustration I may also yell the same to those I care about most. I have a real bad startle reflex and loud sudden noises set me off. So does weather changes I've had a number of attacks tonight.
If she has the history I mentioned the doctor is going to have to treat it different than regular run of the mill panic attacks. The first thing done is usually antidepressants. For most Anxiety Attacks it works but for sensory dysfunction triggered ones it worsens and enhances the attacks themselves. Hope she never has another one. Probably a one time occurance.
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