Origin of species is traced to pond life

The Times of London ^ | TUESDAY DECEMBER 18 2001 | BY MARK HENDERSON, SCIENCE CORRESPONDENT

[nimdoc]

.. Even if evolution were fact, ID is a possibility…. To explore ALL avenues with no set destination is the only way to discover

ID is certainly a possibility, but as Patrick Henry points out in #189, why go there if there is no evidence pointing in that direction? When the evidence points that way science will assuredly follow.
Behe and Dembski go there because they have no evidence. Runnin’ scared, they are.

[BMCDA]

Yeah, but fortunately he is appeased by the sweet savour of burnt flesh.

[dubyagee]

Behe and Dembski go there because they have no evidence

And again I say that to many the laws and the order is evidence. But after reading the last few posts on this thread I think I'll run scared. It's going downhill fast....

[Nebullis]

The fact that life in this part of the universe uses left handed amino acids and right handed protiens is a matter of chance.

Well.

Homochirality of life is not likely a matter of chance. There is plenty of evidence which suggests that multiple influences from catalysts, substrates, parity violating weak forces, gamma rays, stability of complexes and so forth influence the energetic advantage of one isomer or enantiomer over another. Just because sugar forms a racemic mixture in your particular reaction doesn't mean that all reactions result in racemic mixtures.

[Nebullis]

Provides a wonderful glimpse inside the designer's "mind", yes?

There are myriad sucy revealing glimpses from the world of science. If you put them all together, what picture does this "mind" present? Anything approaching current evolutionary theory?

[pcl]

Homochirality of life is not likely a matter of chance.

To what degree is it "not likely."

[week 71]

(If we were invaded by life made from mirror image carbon changes, we would not have to worry about them eating us. )

That is good "organic chemistry humor":-)LOL!You should consider that for some text book. cheers

[Nebullis]

You understand, I hope, that epsilon is all it takes.

[week 71]

Homochirality of life is not likely a matter of chance. There is plenty of evidence which suggests that multiple influences from catalysts, substrates, parity violating weak forces, gamma rays, stability of complexes and so forth influence the energetic advantage of one isomer or enantiomer over another. Just because sugar forms a racemic mixture in your particular reaction doesn't mean that all reactions result in racemic mixtures.

My head is swimming with terms from my undergraduate organic chemistry classes! I must say you sound very cerebral, pedantic, and a regular erudite. I hope to never have to argue some point with you. :o)

[Diamond]

But when you go into the realm of the quantum world, things happen without a cause. A number of theories have been put forward that a allow the universe to exist, like a quantum event, without a cause.

Even in the various theories to which you refer, a quantum world is still not absolutely nothing, but a necessary set of physical conditions. Things cannot happen where there is total nothingness because by definition there are no things in total nothingness. A quantum vacuum is not nothing, and fluctuations in a quantum vacuum do not constitute an exception to the principle that whatever begins to exist has a cause. The universe still has to have a source, and appealing to arbitrary necessity by saying that it just happens to exist is not a reasonable or satisfying explanation.

Isn't that the whole point of science anyway; namely, looking for rational reasons for things? Our scientific knowledge about the physical universe is based on our understanding of cause and effect, and it is therefore reasonable to assume that the universe itself has a cause, and so is contingent.

Cordially,

[pcl]

Cut to the chase. Are you asserting that the fact that life composed of carbon chains mirroring ours is impossible? Not nearly impossible, or close to impossible, must just plain impossible?

[pcl]

I must say you sound very cerebral, pedantic, and a regular erudite.

He is mearly a sesquipedalian. If he were to defenestrate the big words we might be able to have a conversation.

[Nebullis]

Cut to the chase. Are you asserting that the fact that life composed of carbon chains mirroring ours is impossible? Not nearly impossible, or close to impossible, must just plain impossible?

Given a set of conditions with an outcome favorable to L, even with a small advantage, it would eventually rule out R. So, I think it's very possible that ancient conditions were such that both L and R existed, but that one gained an advantage, not by pure chance, but because conditions favored one over the other. Conditions elsewhere in the universe may well tip the advantage to the mirror compounds.

[pcl]

not by pure chance, but because conditions favored one over the other.

The fact that conditions favored one over the other..

Was that not determined by chance?

[PatrickHenry]

Placemarker.

[Nebullis]

The fact that conditions favored one over the other.. Was that not determined by chance?

I don't pretend to have anything useful to say about the how it is that the universe is instead of isn't. But this initial state of affairs, for example, is not the immediate reason you turn one way to go to work in the morning instead of the other way. Nor is it the reason for the homochirality of life.

[Nebullis]

amend: for this particular homochirality.

[Wm Bach]

Suddenly, I feel less like an individual, and more like a well coordinated lump of coral. What if one group of cells stages a coup? Okay, now I'm paranoid! Hold yourself together, Bach... hold your self togeth... *slough splat*

[sheltonmac]

I do agree, most definitely. Sproul's the man!