Celebrating 470 years of an ongoing miracle, the apparition of Our Lady of Guadalupe 1531

Catholic History | 12 12 2001 | Cap'n Crunch

[SoothingDave]

Read John 17 and you will see that that particular title is aimed very pointedly at the Father.

OK. If the Father is the "True God," what does that make Jesus? The "Mostly True God"?

SD

[newgeezer]

Read John 17 and you will see that that particular title is aimed very pointedly at the Father.

{sigh} There you go, throwing that bible stuff around again. You really should quit trying to play cards while your deck is missing the other 51 cards.</sarcasm>

[biblewonk]

Why would I try and talk titles to a Catholic. You think the title 'Holy Father' is for the pope.

[realpatriot71]

Look, before I make this last statement I want you to know that I do respect Roman Catholics as true Christians. However, I do not believe that your belief in Mary as perfect can be substantiated by the Bible. One proof text, that may or may not have a certain meaning is not enough. I think that another perfect individual besides Christ would be a big deal. The New Testament authors would have said something about it. I'm not trying to bash your faith, but rather understand. God Bless.

[ZULU]

I find it most interesting that the Supreme Court decision which gave the Presidency to George Bush Junior was rendered on the Catholic Feast Day of the Lady of Guadeloupe. I mean, George Bush opposes abortion, and Gore supported it. The Lady of Guadelupe is the Catholic saint of the unborn, Very intersting indeed.

I always keep an open mind.

[biblewonk]

I don't know, I think anything less than 6 or 7 rosaries is pretty much bashing.

[SoothingDave]

Why would I try and talk titles to a Catholic. You think the title 'Holy Father' is for the pope.

Nice dodge. You get the undercoating on that one? Five year warranty?

Anyway, if the Father is the "True God," what is Jesus? The "Mostly True God"?

SD

[biblewonk]

If the Father is the Father, is Jesus the Father?

[SoothingDave]

If the Father is the Father, is Jesus the Father?

Pay attention. I'm going to do something you might find useful for later. I am going to answer the question that was put to me. You might want to try it sometime.

The Father is not the Son or the Spirit. The Son is not the Father or the Spirit. The Spirit is not the Father or the Son. And yet they are all God. True God.

You seem to want to make "Godness" or "True Godness" a character of only the Father. Is there a difference between being "God" and being "True God"? If the Father is "True God" is the Son "Mostly True God" or what?

I've asked you three times.

SD

[SMEDLEYBUTLER]

You may know your bible

It should be noted that that would be an abridged version of the Catholic Bible.

[RobbyS]

MOG has always had a mother of the Father sound to it to me and this proves it.

You are really into "tone," aren't you. Kindly look at the meaning of the phrase as defined by the Catholic Church rather than depend on your ear, because what you are hearing is dead wrong.

[Renatus]

I am a Roman Catholic and we Roman Catholics do not worship Our Blessed Virgin Mary. That beautiful humble servant of God who gave birth to Jesus, the God-Man, is one whom we love with the deepest affection. You can rant and rave and tear apart but the likes of you cannot separate Roman Catholics from the love we have for our wonderful, beautiful, sinless Virgin Mary. "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou among women and blessed in the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen."

[AsYouAre]

Renatus,

Believe me - I have nothing against any Catholic (including you). My family, neighbors, and some of my best friends are Roman Catholic. My issue is with the Catholic church and its inconsistency with Scripture - especially as it relates to the elevation of Mary. I have no idea whether Mary was beautiful or not (I would like to think so), but she certainly was not sinless ("For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"). Furthermore, why would she have to be sinless to heed the call of God?

[RobbyS]

I think that another perfect individual besides Christ would be a big deal.

We believe that Mary is the first Christian, and the model for all Christians. Except that we believe that she from the first monent of her existence was preserved from sin as we all shall be after we fall asleep and meet Christ face to face. This has to do with her relationship with Christ rather than her nature, for from the moment of her conception she "knew" him as we will only know him in heaven. Like us, she is a mere creature, and she, like us, can only "know" the Triune God through her son, Jesus. Her radiance is that of the moon as compared with that of Jesus, which is that of the sun, and is but a pale reflection of his.

[realpatriot71]

I can appreciate and understand where you are coming from. I am convinced that RC's do not actually worship Mary (at least you're not supposed to), but the entire Mary theology cannot be backed up by scripture. I personally have serious problems with that. I can accept the word of God as being passed down the year with near flawless accuracy, but I have a hard time accepting church tradition that has been passed down by men. I cannot know with 100% certainty that the RCC is wrong here, and will not make that statement, but I will say that, and I do not think this is being dishonest in any way, that Mariology cannot be shown scripturally to be correct. Some day we will know the truth. God bless.

[biblewonk]

My answer is that I am only comfortable with biblical titles given to God. When we start making them up ourselves we get ourselves into trouble with things like "Mother of God" or "God the Son". I asked the Father question because for verse that says "And Has name shall be called, Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" Each one is a particular name and title and each one is significant. It's very Catholic to ascribe significance to the ones you have made up yourself but I won't touch them. I only respect what God calls Himself.

So now that we remember that verse is the Son the Father? Maybe we shouldn't be so dogmatic and just listen more carefully to the Word of God.

[SoothingDave]

Did any of that answer the question I posed thrice to you?

No. Why can't you say Jesus is God?

SD

[BlessedBeGod]

Happy Feast Day, Mama! (Albeit one day late.)