[Nick Danger]

I'd quote Franklin on safety vs liberty, but I've been told on other threads that ole Ben was a good guy but he's irrelevant because he never faced the kind of "dire situation" we find ourselves in today. Makes you wonder....

I've sadly concluded that this is not the time to worry about breaking a few heads. It makes me uneasy, but so far the really serious Bad News has been confined to non-citizens. Yeah, there's a slippery slope there, and we do need to worry about that, but so far, I'm inclined to look the other way. Here's why:

There is something far worse that could happen here, that would make today's measures look like the Fourth Amendment.

Regardless of who has been mailing the anthrax around, we know that Mohammed Atta & Co. were looking into crop dusters, had books on various kinds of spraying equipment, and so on. We've also discovered anthrax labs in the left-behinds when al-qa'ida fled from Kabul. If one of these Abduls ever succeeds in spraying 100 pounds of this stuff over an American city, and kills three or four hundred thousand people, you can kiss your civil liberties goodbye. The measures taken in the wake of something like that would make today's measures look like pinpricks by comparison, and people will be clamoring for more. If two such incidents went down with a million or more dead, the vast majority of the American people would cheer the formation of a police state, just to make it stop.

We need to be careful what we wish for here. We could "defend our liberties" right into the grave if we make it so easy for terrorists that they do something that brings a police state down on our heads... by popular demand.

Should the FBI be spying on churches? You bet. Two of the guys who hijacked the planes got their start in America from a mullah. The guy who planned the first WTC bombing was also a mullah. If mosques are off limits, we've essentially created a "cone of silence" for Islamic terrorists, right in the middle of our cities. I don't think we need to be so nice.

[kampeska]

I work with an old crazy from WWII. He remembers when he felt free in the USA. He could take public transportation duck hunting with his shot gun. His freedom was on the backs of those in the USA who perhaps because of skin tone, religious beliefs, or circumstance were more closely watched and controled. The limiting of their freedoms had provided him with more freedom. Those times are gone. We need to be ever vigilent. He is a great guy.

[WRhine]

BTTT. Very well stated Nick.

[Leroy S. Mort]

Should the FBI be spying on churches? You bet.

Assuming you go to church, are you comfortable with a clandestine FBI presence in your congregation from now on? You never know whether your pew-mate might be a militia member or an anti-abort crazy, afterall.

[Freedom'sWorthIt]

Your post #64 - very well said.

The FBI agents "rebelling" are no doubt ones who did Clinton's bidding inside the FBI.

We are between a rock and a hard place.

If we leave the Mosques uninvestigatable, we leave Islamic terrorist cells in this country off limits and we allow the planning of future terrorist attacks to go forward unimpeded.

If AG Ashcroft goes forward with plans to monitor "religious" centers, one day - if another Clinton (perish the thought) ever made into the Presidency, we all KNOW what "religious" centers would become targets - and it would not be mosques holding suspected Islamic terrorists.

The same can be said for all the "emergency" measures that are being put into place in order to catch the terrorists and to prevent further acts of terrorism against America. Under the current President, these measures SHOULD be used against those ready to kill Americans to advance their terrorist causes. Under a Clinton II, these measures WOULD be used against people standing in the way of their power grabs....ordinary, every day Americans who love freedom and loathe tyrants like the Clintons and all Marxist/Leninist/Moaist/GlobalCommunists.

I ask - what do we do?

We do not find a way to monitor activity inside Mosques which house Islamic terrorist cells - and hundreds, thousands, if not millions of Americans could die as a result.

We do find ways to monitor these Mosques and, subsequently, discover and prevent future terrorist attacks by breaking up these cells - preventing the deaths of thousands if not millions of Americans - but a Clinton II comes to power and uses these emergency measures as just what they need to finally go after - with force - Christians who have been the "one group to stand in their way."

This is the quandary of our time, thanks to Sept. 11th and the Clinton Plague.

We must break up these American terrorist cells - even if it means monitoring Mosques (and, what if the FBI agents "rebelling" are ones who did Clinton's bidding and who KNOW where the terrorists are - in those Mosques - and who know that if we suveil these groups - the Clintons terrorist friends LOSE their BEST COVER?)

And, then, we must unite to do the hard work and earnest prayer necessary to defeat a Clinton II occurrance.

One last thought.

Since the Constitution is just so much trash paper to the Clintonistas already, and since they used murder/terrorist tactics against their enemies when they were in power (and, before, on their way TO power) - it seems to me that it won't matter what has happened beforehand with surveillance of religious groups or not. If Clinton II ever happens, the FBI will once again become their personal security force used against their enemies - not against the enemies of America. And it will be nightmare city time for the Christian - and other - "resistance to tyranny" movements ---whether or not any FBI policy changes have occurred.

(By the way - if the "rebel" FBI agents are Clintonistas - I would tell AG Ashcroft to proceed immediately with these plans - knowing they are squealing because they KNOW FOR CERTAIN these measures will find links between the Mosque based American terrorist cells - and the USA's leading Terrorists.......the ones who pardoned terrorists and embraced them and accepted money and support from them.)

[Maelstrom]

You guys aren't thinking this through.

Bush, at most will be in office 8 years. Unless, of course, he pulls a Clinton and subverts a mere extra Amendment above those already done in.

There are a LOT of Clintonista's out there in both major political parties. What exactly do you think is going to happen when one of THEM gets elected with THESE powers?

YOU will be considered terrorists simply for being conservative as many Freepers are now considered potential terrorists for defending the Constitution against both parties' encroachments.

[Harrison Bergeron]

"by popular demand."

That's about the only way permanent police states have ever been formed, as far as I know.

[Plummz]

The guy who planned the first WTC bombing was also a mullah

And the guy who actually built the bomb was an FBI informant, working under the direct orders of his agent-handlers to build a real bomb and not a dummy.