FBI agents rebel over new powers

London Observer ^ | Sunday December 2, 2001 | Ed Vulliamy in New York

[OKCSubmariner]

The US Attorney General, John Ashcroft, was yesterday reported to be ready to relax restrictions on the FBI's powers to spy on religious and church-based political organisations.

His proposal, leaked to the New York Times, would loosen limits on the FBI's surveillance powers, imposed in the 1970s after the death of its founder J. Edgar Hoover.

The plan has caused outrage within the FBI itself with agents expected to act upon new surveillance powers describing themselves as 'very, very angry'.

The spying, wiretapping and surveillance campaign unleashed by Hoover against church and political groups was called 'Cointelpro', and was aimed mainly at the movement behind civil rights activist Martin Luther King, the Black Panthers, the anti-Vietnam war movement and, on the other wing, the Ku Klux Klan.

When the system was revealed, upon Hoover's death, restrictions were put on the security bureau, in the form of two sets of regulations pertaining to foreign-based and domestic groups. The rules forbade FBI agents from sending undercover agents into churches, synagogues or mosques unless they found 'probable cause or evidence' that someone in them had broken the law.

A Justice Department spokeswoman, Susan Dryden, said no final decision had been made on their reintroduction.

According to sources, the plan has caused a sharp rift within the department and the FBI. Ashcroft and the new FBI director, Robert Mueller, are pushing the plan eagerly, but there is strong opposition among officials inside both the bureau and the Justice Department.

Internal opposition to the plan will exacerbate an already fractious atmosphere in the FBI since President Bush took office.

Some agents told the New York Times that they considered any weakening of the guidelines 'a serious mistake', and that the Justice Department had 'not clearly described' the proposed changes. 'People are furious right now,' said one agent.

The changes would become part of what civil liberties groups regard as a dangerously changing legal landscape in the US: 1,200 people with connections to Islamic groups have been taken into custody, and Draconian security measures, such as wiretapping of lawyers, pushed through Congress.

Further plans are now afoot to seek out and interview some 5,000 immigrants, mostly Muslims, who have entered the US since January.

[WRhine]

My chances of dying from anthrax/terrorists/etc. are much less than when I step off of a curb to cross the street or drive down to the grocery store.

I believe Nick's point was that another terrorist attack like 9/11 or worse could give rise to martial law in this country out of a sense of survival most would sign on to. I wouldn't discount this possibility and it is irrelevant to compare your assessment of your personal risks to terrorism with the panic of the populace if we get attacked again. If the FBI can, through the easing of some privacy laws, increase their effectiveness in penetrating terrorist cells before they can perpetrate any more large scale murderous assaults, the temporary loss of these rights is better than the alternative if we don’t do what is necessary to bring down terrorism here. These are extraordinary times and sacrifices have to be made to defeat those who wish to end our way of life and life itself. Having said that, I understand your concerns about these new powers falling into the hands of the sinister socialist party. That is a risk too.

[HiTech RedNeck]

Maybe he'll get saved.

[JD86]

'People are furious right now,' said one agent. These people are Clinton hold-overs.

Okay, when you can read the whole sentence....I will respond to you. My comment was about the agent....your rants are about Ashcroft. Get a clue...read before you write and rant.

[HiTech RedNeck]

There are enough Bushes alone for a potential total of 24 years (W, Jeb, the nephew)

[The_Expatriate]

FBI agents rebel over new powers

I'm sure this title must be a typo; please allow me to make the appropriate corrections:

FBI agents revel in new powers

[HiTech RedNeck]

The "Christian Patriots" (nice rhetorical sleight of hand, the FBI don't give a hoot about folks like Jerry Falwell, but McVeigh and company are a different matter) shouldn't be quite so puffed up about their importance. If (er, WHEN! read the Bible) the the time the Lord has appointed for a One World Government arrives, we will GET one.

[mlo]

For more definitive proof of the OKC bombing case, mlo, you need to read the 40 articles I have written on the subject that I posted on the FreeRepublic in the psast 18 months.

I've read a few, but not most. There is a difference between what gets printed in an article, especially on FR, and "proof". Most of what shows up here is speculation and even when there is evidence it only suggests possibilities, it isn't proof. The article starting this thread is a good example of that. It didn't even have the revelation it promised. It may be that you have posted actual "proof" of a cover-up here, but I doubt it, no disrespect intended.

As for me, I have my hands full already. I'll have to rely on you and Schippers do uncover this if it has really been hidden.

Concerning Ryan and Kuper, it is as I said. When Ryan admitted his mistake about attacking Kuper he was acknowledging that Kuper did indeed come forward as he said. That is not the same thing as admitting what Kuper said was true, or that these videos existed showing what he claimed. That is a different thing altogether. That is why I pointed it out.

[F16Fighter]

I don't pretend to be an expert on the subject of such protocols such as the Brotherhood of Satan providing counseling to our soldiers(?!), or FBI literature/missions targeting Christian "Patriots." Afterall isn't that why some of are here at FR -- to gather and share that type of info?

I'd be very interested in specific info or links that back up the latter charge regarding the Feds.

[Nick Danger]

This is a joke Nick. Ashcroft isn't serious. The borders are an open sieve with middle eastern terrorists driving 18-wheelers across the desert. Already about a 1000 border control agents have quit to become Air Marshals.

I'm not very good at this sort of discussion style. I read what you said there, and rather than believe something worse, I've concluded that you're one of those people who makes points emotionally, using words strung together that paint feelings, as opposed to facts.

I interpret your statement that "Ashcroft isn't serious" as a sort of regret that we do not have more border control agents. The actual testimony referred to the "5,000 agents authorized" by law. No matter how serious Ashcroft is, he does not get to appropriate money, or hire more agents than Congress has authorized. Your displeasure would be better directed at Congress.

That the borders are an open sieve will be news to the thousands of people who wait in line everyday to get across. Oh... you didn't mean they were actually an open sieve, you were just transmitting your feeling that they are more open than you feel they should be. See, I'm not very good at this.

The same thing with Middle Eastern terrorists driving 18-wheelers across the desert. You still mean on roads, right? You're not suggesting that these trucks are barreling through sand dunes like Land Rovers. At least, I hope not. But there weren't really any trucks anyway; that was just another transmission of the feeling that the borders are an open sieve. I guess.

I'd never heard about the thousand border control agents quitting. But I figured that didn't happen either, that it was another feeling, a sense that "whole bunches" of border control agents were responding to the higher salaries of the air marshals and making a switch. I did find an article in the WashPost dated today, talking about how a dozen or so of them have already switched, and how there might be a lot more because the air marshal jobs pay $10 to $20 thousand more. The guy who runs the INS is already on Capitol Hill looking to give his guys a raise before he gets cleaned out.

Anyway, I'm not very good at extracting sentiments from what looks to me like, well, hyperbole. So if I got all this wrong, sorry.

[timestax]

bttt

[HiTech RedNeck]

The borders are sieves in the sense that most people who have made up their minds to get across one come hell or high water, can. Not to mention our miles of spottily watched (if at all) coastline. Also our visa enforcement is extremely weak, partly for political reasons, partly for logistical ones, so we have thousands of people still here who we never wanted to be.

This is not to deny that your point about the need to do what's necessary to staunch terrorism NOW in order to prevent bringing a total military state down on our heads is well made. I think of the whole country being shut down like the airlines were on Sept. 11. We do not have the luxury of living in the 18th century again where the supply lines of enemy forces had to endure the rigors of crossing thousands of miles of ocean in wind-driven ships and the domestic presence of the enemy was not sufficient to exterminate us (as well as the vast majority of the public -- that did NOT want a revolution -- being conveniently shut out of influence upon the embryonic government).

[Ms. AntiFeminazi]

"Ashcroft and FBI Director Muller sneaked through unconstitutional provisons in the "Patriot Act" stripping US citizens of many fundamental rights and civil liberties without any proper safeguards or reviews. These provisions also permit the CIA to monitor US citzens in the US and to gain access to secret Federal grand jury testimony."

Please provide the source for this comment then provide the proof in the pudding, iow, the bill text that does what they claim above.

My sincerest apologies for not being able to get back to this since I made my offer/request. I will not forget. In fact, started it yesterday and got called away to something else. I will get back to you on this. :)

[timestax]

b

[timestax]

bttt

[DAGO]

I read it in a thread here in FR and thought of U.
Do you work for Free Republic?You seem to be able to moniter the posts easely.

[Ms. AntiFeminazi]

I read it in a thread here in FR and thought of U. Do you work for Free Republic?You seem to be able to moniter the posts easely.

No, I don't work for FR. lol. I do know how to get around pretty well though. If you need help with something specific, let me know. I'll do what I can to help.