Posted on 12/01/2001 8:12:17 PM PST by OKCSubmariner
The US Attorney General, John Ashcroft, was yesterday reported to be ready to relax restrictions on the FBI's powers to spy on religious and church-based political organisations.
His proposal, leaked to the New York Times, would loosen limits on the FBI's surveillance powers, imposed in the 1970s after the death of its founder J. Edgar Hoover.
The plan has caused outrage within the FBI itself with agents expected to act upon new surveillance powers describing themselves as 'very, very angry'.
The spying, wiretapping and surveillance campaign unleashed by Hoover against church and political groups was called 'Cointelpro', and was aimed mainly at the movement behind civil rights activist Martin Luther King, the Black Panthers, the anti-Vietnam war movement and, on the other wing, the Ku Klux Klan.
When the system was revealed, upon Hoover's death, restrictions were put on the security bureau, in the form of two sets of regulations pertaining to foreign-based and domestic groups. The rules forbade FBI agents from sending undercover agents into churches, synagogues or mosques unless they found 'probable cause or evidence' that someone in them had broken the law.
A Justice Department spokeswoman, Susan Dryden, said no final decision had been made on their reintroduction.
According to sources, the plan has caused a sharp rift within the department and the FBI. Ashcroft and the new FBI director, Robert Mueller, are pushing the plan eagerly, but there is strong opposition among officials inside both the bureau and the Justice Department.
Internal opposition to the plan will exacerbate an already fractious atmosphere in the FBI since President Bush took office.
Some agents told the New York Times that they considered any weakening of the guidelines 'a serious mistake', and that the Justice Department had 'not clearly described' the proposed changes. 'People are furious right now,' said one agent.
The changes would become part of what civil liberties groups regard as a dangerously changing legal landscape in the US: 1,200 people with connections to Islamic groups have been taken into custody, and Draconian security measures, such as wiretapping of lawyers, pushed through Congress.
Further plans are now afoot to seek out and interview some 5,000 immigrants, mostly Muslims, who have entered the US since January.
I challenge you to either cite where OKCSubmariner said "the FBI was intent on getting" him, or admit you are lying.
According to the Whacko crowd, the FBI, CIA, DIA, LSMFT, etc. are out to get us all, and have been for 50 years. You would think they would have found a way in almost half a century!
Try the decaf.
I don't recall reading anything on OKC attornery, Mike Johnson's comments describing the tapes and what is on them.
what is on them?
or, where could I find a link to that Alex Jones interview..or a transcript of the show?
Are you going to give the current administration a pass because they're republicans?
I particularly liked the one about how those FBI agents who had problems with the new guidelines should just resign because they're Clinton holdovers. Reminded me of the DemocRAT invective heeped upon Gary Aldrich.
Your attitude is praise worthy. And that is what is the most disastrous, the institution of internal police will evolve - the most principled people will leave and the worse once will take their place. You will wake up in a different country soon.
..hey, I resemble that statement!
LOL! I wonder what the bible-thumpers here on FR will have to say about this? They seem to be Bubba Bush's most vocal and rabid supporters. After all,like they like to say when people question other fascist moves Bubba Bush has made,these are the people who most often respond with "If you don't have anything to hide,you don't have anything to worry about."
Make no mistake about it,Bubba Bush and Janet Ashcroft ARE Bubba bin Bombing and Janet Reno is disguise.
Remind me to congratulate him on the promotion.
Well, I doubt Ashcroft will ever find time to respond to the eleven Burton Committee subpoenas. How much more time should Congress give the man, it has already been two months and three weeks?
Do you think that AShcroft should appear at all and if so when?
What? Criticizing the changes in guidelines without a clear description of such changes? That's something only a Clinton FBI appointee, the NY Times and various posters here on this thread could do.
... and Draconian security measures, such as wiretapping of lawyers, pushed through Congress.
This sounds like NY Times propaganda to me. Let the detained clients meet with their laywers in person. Then, their conversations would not be monitored. The more of these incorrect criticisms I see of Aschcroft, the more I begin to support Ashcroft. If there are some bad things that Ashcroft is doing, why do we surround these issues with NY Times propaganda?
FWIW, I don't reject the idea that McVeigh had other help, but I do have reasonable standards of evidence, and I will question or disagree with deductions based on poor evidence.
OKC resident and witness John Morris Kuper testified at the Nickles trial that McVeigh and a John Doe (we now have identified the John Doe through other photos) walked directly in front of surveillance cameras (which the FBI confiscated) at the public library and the SW Bell telephone company in OKC. The US prosecutor Pat Ryan called him a liar but later Ryan publicly admitted in May taht he had made a mistake when the lost and then found FBI 302 interview reports revealed that Kuper had told the truth. Ashcroft refused to act on this revelation. This was reported on FR and in the Daily Oklahoman.
I believe you are misstating this incident. If this is the same one I recall, Kuper did report seeing McVeigh with someone else. Ryan said Kuper didn't report it at the time, then later found out that he had and corrected himself. The issue was whether the witness had reported his claim early on or not. The issue was not whether he was lying about the video, which is how you've portrayed this.
Attorney General Reno office wrote a letter to OK state Rep Charles Key in 1996 acknowledging that the DOJ had a copy of the tape showing the explosion but cited Judge Matsch gag order as the reason for not releasing the tape. I have read the letter to Key.
Sounds good. Is the gag order still in effect?
BlueDogDemo(former OKC PD) who worked for Naval intelligence and for the state department at the bomb scene with the FBI is helping OKC attorney Mike Johnson to get release of the tapes from Judge Matsch but so far Ashcroft has blocked the tapes release. Johnson was on the Alex Jones show last nmoth describing the tapes and what is on them. This was reported on the FR in a WND article.
Has Johnson seen them? After all, there are people here reporting what is on them that have never seen them.
That's about the only way permanent police states have ever been formed, as far as I know.
You just said a mouthful of truth there. The next year ought to show us just how fast it will happen.
Thanks, OkieGrit2, for your thoughtful response. You are right. I appreciate you getting me back on track.
To all others, it was late and I blew it.
Obviously, he doesn't have time. He's been busy straightening out that rogue state of Oregon, doncha know?
"I believe you are misstating this incident. If this is the same one I recall, Kuper did report seeing McVeigh with someone else. Ryan said Kuper didn't report it at the time, then later found out that he had and corrected himself. The issue was whether the witness had reported his claim early on or not. The issue was not whether he was lying about the video, which is how you've portrayed this."
At the trial Ryan claimed that Kuper had no credibility about seeing a John Doe with McVeigh and no credibiltiy about his story that McVeigh and John Doe walked in front of the surveillance cameras (the FBI did in fact confiscate these cameras and tapes).
In court Ryan based his claims that Kuper had no cerdibiltiy, should not be beleived at all about the John Doe, the tapes or any of his story, because Ryan said at the time there was no record of Kuper going to the FBI early on with his story.
Kuper tetified under oath that he went to the FBI three different times after the bombing with his story, once the week after the bobming and then twice after he got out of the hospital for an exploded colon (not kidding). Kuper was fully vindicated this year when the FBI 302s were located and admitted to. I posted an article on this on the FR.
I read the trial transcript closely and spoke with Kuper on three occassions. I also have spoken to Ryan in the past about the OKC case. Ryan was deliberately trying to tottally discredit ALL of Kuper's testimony. I also know police offers who were interviewed by Ryan and they tell me that Ryan was even covering up in their interviews, he rejected all their info about ME involvemnt and refused to receive the info from the police officers (very similar to the US prosecutor Sean Connelly & the FBI refusing to receive ME evidence from Jayna Davis and her attorney).
For more definitive proof of the OKC bombing case, mlo, you need to read the 40 articles I have written on the subject that I posted on the FreeRepublic in the psast 18 months.
If you want to have evidence that meets legal, court standards then talk to reporters Jayna Davis & Bill Jasper, invesigator (Naval Intelligence) BlueDogDemo,Rep Charles Key,OKCPD officer Don Browning,attorneys Mike Johnston David Schippers,Pentagon terror advisor Jesse Clear,Senate Judiciary and Intell Committe Legal counsels Kolan Davis and Joan Grimson, for they all have my evidence and much more and have it prepared in a form that will meet court standards. Ashcroft personally saw some of the evidence in the presence of an Air Force General I know and Ashcroft did nothing except cover it up- it is absolutely disgusting.
Davis, Johnston and BlueDogdemo have gathered the evidence on the 22 tapes and have filed motions on the matter before Judge Matsch in Denver. I also reported that on the FreeRepublic and attorney Schippers(legal counsel in the House impeachment proceedings) is fully aware of the details-he understands like Johnson and Davis' other attorneys the legal requirements for court evidence.
I hope you will take what I have written seriously. I spend most of my energies reporting the story so people will know rather than getting bogged down in the legal manueverings needed in court. History will record I am correct and that God gave Fed government people a chance to know the truth and to correct the problems even if they do not.
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