Posted on 12/01/2001 12:28:35 PM PST by He Rides A White Horse
Your comment: The difference between pro-abortion and pro-life is one of different perceptions of reality and different ethical structures. Pro-abortion people believe that it is entirely unrealistic to expect people to give up sexuality outide of marriage, or to be be willing to see off-spring result from such unions. Therefore it is as reasonable to legalize abortion as it is to legalize alcohol. . . . Pro-life people respond by saying there's a great difference between drunkenness and murder. And so there is. . . . But there are legitimate questions - probably never resolveable scientifically - about when human life actually begins. . . . And finally there's the issue of birth control. Far too many pro-lifers are against birth control (except abstinence) and do everything they can to prevent dissemination of information and devices - despite what you say about its morality.My reply: But this can be said [different perceptions of reality and different ethical structures] of most anything. The Bible addresses this (etc.).
Your responses: The men of the Torah and the Mishnah (and their Christian equivalents) are rightly famed for their wisdom. I am not one of them.
And: I didn't, and don't, understand how you mean to apply your quotations and commentary to the subject at hand.
My college professors always criticized my lack of clarity (seems it persists). My apologies. I will try to explain myself better here.
In the discussion regarding, for example, abortion (and this can be applied to genocide, as well), you had said people are polarized by their differences in perception of reality or their ethical upbringing. By this I believe you meant it causes people to view the world differently, their perceptions of right and wrong being based upon their own experiences or how they were taught by society and/or their family structures. Catholics, for example, for the most part (due to church doctrine) believe that any form of birth control immoral. By contrast, in China it is "acceptable" to practice genocide. In the one case, i.e., Catholic doctrine, by merely practicing birth control it can be considered the prevention of creation which is to them a form of murder; in the other, it is a crime not to commit genocide.
What I was attempting to state was society/church may dictate to its members what's "right" and what's "wrong." But just because it either gives its blessing or punishment for certain actions, does not mean those judgments are "right." Our consciences are accountable to God. We are to, individually, look to Him to determine what truly is right and wrong within ourselves.
For example, if, in my own consience, it is better I do something against the law, then I will break the law. (The best example I can think of concerning this goes back to the slave trade days, when many people harbored slaves and helped them). To God, they did the right thing; to the confederate society, they didn't.
On the reverse, if I look to God to direct my actions, then I must be careful that breaking a law or one of His commandmant's (i.e., thou shalt not kill) would withstand scrutiny. (The best example I can think of concerning this: if someone enters my home with obvious evil intent, I would be justified to protect myself/my family and shoot to kill the intruder.)
Then there are grey areas, where behaving a certain way may cause emotional or spiritual problems for another. I must be as sensitive to those needs. (Example would be drinking, as I previously mentioned).
To state succintly, there is a higher moral code than man-made laws, which laws are, obviously, sometimes quite immoral. We should all strive to live by those higher moral codes as dictated by our consciences. In the grey areas, we should not condemn those whose consciences do not condemn themselves. And we should live our lives as peaceably as possible, one with another. The reason I brought up the alcohol example is because that would be a grey area. Some church sects forbid it as a sin, others do not. If it would cause a problem for another, then refrain until a time when it can be consumed without jeopardizing either a friendship or their spiritual walk.
I don't know if this clarified what I was attempting to say. I am hoping so.
Second, the problem as you outline it is age-old - what belongs to the state, what to the church, what to the individual. And how does one establish a true relationship with God (or conscience). It's true that abortion is one of those issues that forces us to confront these questions anew.
Third, although there may be higher laws (or not depending on one's religious views) in real life here on earth we can all reach legitimately different conclusions on what they are. I have every reason to believe in your sincerity. I would hope you can feel the same about mine.
I can and I do. With the millions of people here on earth, none could ever reach the same conclusions about all things. The important part to understanding and learning is the ability to listen and reason. Sometimes a discussion may become heated, but understanding, wisdom, and friendships cannot be built without going through the process, nor can friendships be destroyed unless there are personal attacks. It would be a boring world, indeed, if everyone agreed on everything and had one and the same mind. It would be equally boring if one speaks to others who refuse to listen and consider what is said. Then, of course, there's always the "agree to disagree agreeably." That works pretty good, too.
But they failed to mention her writings concerning the creation of, in her words, "government-run farms and homesteads" for "illiterates, paupers, unemployables, criminals, prostitutes, dope-fiends, morons, mental defectives and epileptics."Heartwarming, isn't it?
It might be, if they'd picked a different venue. As it stands, I'll only go so far as to acknowledge that it's the most lengthy, tiresome, pedantic description I've ever seen for Washington, DC.
Margaret Sanger and Adolph Hitler. Seriously. Think about it. Eva Braun.........not right for der Fuerer, wouldn't you agree?
Now "Maggie", there's a gal who could motivate a whole division of SS soldiers, I'm sure.
One may even argue that the student has surpassed the master teacher, wouldn't you agree?............Sanger alone has furthered Hitler's agenda more than anybody else I can think of.
Is that so?.............then perhaps you would care to share some of your 'insights' regarding abortion with me............;)
Nop. You are subscribing me views whatever they are. Why don't you leave me alone and go back to writing your articles for those Neo Nazi web sites.
Someone who like you who advocates the violent overthrow of the US government. <p......so, Sanger and her progeny are in control of the government?
We're discussing people like you on another thread......the Feinstein thread...check it out. Better yet, maybe I'll be the "Ghost of Christmas Future" and bring you there.............
Propaganda is only useful if it can't be seen for what it is..................you have failed to snatch the pebble, Grasshopper.
Funny, I seem to remember a certain poster (you) advocating a some really weird abortion/ pro-life conflict resolution?.............should we take a quick look.......;)
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